No Horn, clock 0.0, how do you know when game ended?

[dkmz17]

Here's the situation:

Team A down by 1 with 4.9 seconds to go and Team A inbounding the ball under their own basket. Ball is inbounded to A2, who shots and misses, A3 gets the rebound and as she tries to get off a shot, is shoved in the back by B3. Official blows the whistle and has a foul on B3. When officials look at the clock after the foul is whistled, the time shows 0.0, but the horn did not sound. It is apparently reported to the officials by the timer, that the clock malfunctioned, and the horn did not go off, but neither the table or the officials know at what point the time ran out. Team A is in the double bonus.

Does A3 get to shoot free throws? Can the officials announce that the game was over before the foul? Can you replay the last 4.9 seconds, or some portion of the time remaining?

For the record, before you guys start answering, the official's at the game decided to "split the baby". They waived off the foul and put 2.4 seconds on the clock and gave the ball back to Team A for an inbounds under Team A's basket. Team A missed and lost.

I would think that the officials, having no way to positively determine how much time should have run off and having not seen the clock at 0.0 before the foul, should have had A3 shoot the free throws, either with the lane clear and no time left, or possibly, although I don't think this could be properly done, put some time back on the clock, but still shoot the free throws.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Here's the situation:

Team A down by 1 with 4.9 seconds to go and Team A inbounding the ball under their own basket. Ball is inbounded to A2, who shots and misses, A3 gets the rebound and as she tries to get off a shot, is shoved in the back by B3. Official blows the whistle and has a foul on B3. When officials look at the clock after the foul is whistled, the time shows 0.0, but the horn did not sound. It is apparently reported to the officials by the timer, that the clock malfunctioned, and the horn did not go off, but neither the table or the officials know at what point the time ran out. Team A is in the double bonus.

Does A3 get to shoot free throws? Can the officials announce that the game was over before the foul? Can you replay the last 4.9 seconds, or some portion of the time remaining?

For the record, before you guys start answering, the official's at the game decided to "split the baby". They waived off the foul and put 2.4 seconds on the clock and gave the ball back to Team A for an inbounds under Team A's basket. Team A missed and lost.

I would think that the officials, having no way to positively determine how much time should have run off and having not seen the clock at 0.0 before the foul, should have had A3 shoot the free throws, either with the lane clear and no time left, or possibly, although I don't think this could be properly done, put some time back on the clock, but still shoot the free throws.

I would have given A the FTs unless I knew that more than 4.9s elapsed, evne without a definite count. Say that A took 4 shots and rebounded each time, and was fouled on the 5th shot attempt. I would rule that time ran out, but as this play is given to us, I think you have to go with the 2 shots.

This is of course assuming that it's known that after the clock is started, the horn won't sound. I mention this because I have had the clock reading zeros, with the horn not sounding yet. Once the clock was started again, the horn sounded.

[Back In The Saddle]

If there is no definite knowledge, then the referee should ask the table crew if the foul was before or after the horn should have sounded. If they give a unanimous answer, then take it (2-13-2). if not, then you gotta go with "2-13-3: If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul shall be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling."

But how do you know if the horn really malfunctioned or if the clock just shows zeroes but the horn hasn't sounded yet if the foul occurred right at the expiration of time?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

If there is no definite knowledge, then the referee should ask the table crew if the foul was before or after the horn should have sounded. If they give a unanimous answer, then take it (2-13-2). if not, then you gotta go with "2-13-3: If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul shall be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling."

But how do you know if the horn really malfunctioned or if the clock just shows zeroes but the horn hasn't sounded yet if the foul occurred right at the expiration of time?

Good suggestion. Do you do this when home scorers (and not neutral) are being used?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Good suggestion. Do you do this when home scorers (and not neutral) are being used?

Unless you have good reason not to involve them (and I've had table crews I wouldn't trust even as a very last resort), where else are you going to turn for definite knowledge? I realize it's not a great option, but by rule it is there.

[dkmz17]

FYI, the timer reportedly admitted (although not until the following day), that he went to hit the switch to stop the clock and hit the switch to turn off the authomatic horn instead, which means there was time left on the clock at that moment.

Obviously, the officials did not have the benefit of this information, but it still seems apparent that the course that they did choose was one that is not supported by any rule or case situation. Would all/most here agree?

[BillyMac]

In a situation like this, which, believe it or not, has happened to me a few times in twenty-seven years, the first question that I ask the timekeeper is, "Is the automatic horm on?". If the response is yes, we line up to shoot free throws, the game isn't over. If the repsonse is no, then we, the officials, and the table crew, try to come up with some definite information. If we can't agree on some definite information, then I go with Back In The Saddle, 2-13-3: If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul shall be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.