Stay out of my pond!

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We can argue about this all day. But you are admitting that the area is not in the Lead's coverage area.

Peace

Feel free to look back, but none of my posts were arguing the fact that this was Lead's coverage. I'm just not getting all riled up because L came in and took that call. That was how the OP started, right?

I don't think you understood my point on T coming in for a rebounding foul. I was giving you a 'reverse' example to ponder and......well, never mind.

I will, by default, give D1 officials the respect and make the assumption that they are only making calls that they see. This is something, I think, we are all told/taught in our first years of officiating.

I will not though, that because a D1 official doesn't blow his whistle, assume it is because he is passing on the play. That's taking an assumption to an unjustified level.

I'm glad you brought up the reaction of the Trail official. I agree, his reaction wasn't positive and his body language was very negative. To me, that is inexcusable and is basically throwing his partner under the bus. Save it for the locker room.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Feel free to look back, but none of my posts were arguing the fact that this was Lead's coverage. I'm just not getting all riled up because L came in and took that call. That was how the OP started, right?

I don't think you understood my point on T coming in for a rebounding foul. I was giving you a 'reverse' example to ponder and......well, never mind.

I did not say you suggested this was in the Lead's area. You could not make that claim anyway. Also a rebounding situation is very different.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I will, by default, give D1 officials the respect and make the assumption that they are only making calls that they see. This is something, I think, we are all told/taught in our first years of officiating.

We are? First of all I see people ripping D1 officials all the time here. I even see people ripping the top names. I wonder why this play is given so much deference to this one call. And I can think of a certain official that calls all over the court and the very same people on the opposite side of this issue from me often point out how bad this particular official is. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I will not though, that because a D1 official doesn't blow his whistle, assume it is because he is passing on the play. That's taking an assumption to an unjustified level.

Well I am not assuming anything, the covering official did not call anything. That usually means you passed on the play.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm glad you brought up the reaction of the Trail official. I agree, his reaction wasn't positive and his body language was very negative. To me, that is inexcusable and is basically throwing his partner under the bus. Save it for the locker room.

I agree, but telling.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I am not assuming anything, the covering official did not call anything. That usually means you passed on the play.
Peace

Nice try. Earlier you said, "Two other officials were on the play and passed." You obviously were talking about T and C. So if you weren't making an assumption for C, what would you call it?

You're assuming C saw it and passed. Possible. But it is also possible he just didn't see the play. So yes, Jeff, you are assuming (unless you know Jamie Luckie personally and he told you he saw it and passed).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Nice try. Earlier you said, "Two other officials were on the play and passed." You obviously were talking about T and C. So if you weren't making an assumption for C, what would you call it?

You're assuming C saw it and passed. Possible. But it is also possible he just didn't see the play. So yes, Jeff, you are assuming (unless you know Jamie Luckie personally and he told you he saw it and passed).

Nice Try?

Dude, if you think it was a great call, stick with that. I do not think it was a good call. I have been doing 3 Person for over 10 years and have worked hundreds of games and I am a licensed official to teach 3 Person in my state. If you do not want to accept my point of view, don't accept my point of view. And I go to camps all the time where the very officials you see on TV tell us about what we should not or should not call.

I once had a game in camp where my partner called a travel in a critical movement completely in my area and I passed on the call. The evaluator spent most of the time talking about that one call after I told the evaluator when asked I got nothing. To me this is a very similar situation. And I have seen numerous guys get questions about calls for the very reason we are discussing here.

BTW, I do know someone that knows Jamie Luckie rather well and if I cared I would ask me to contact him. But what is the point and if he told me something, I certainly would not pass it here. I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

Dude, if you think it was a great call, stick with that. I do not think it was a good call. I have been doing 3 Person for over 10 years and have worked hundreds of games and I am a licensed official to teach 3 Person in my state. If you do not want to accept my point of view, don't accept my point of view. And I go to camps all the time where the very officials you see on TV tell us about what we should not or should not call.

I once had a game in camp where my partner called a travel in a critical movement completely in my area and I passed on the call. The evaluator spent most of the time talking about that one call after I told the evaluator when asked I got nothing. To me this is a very similar situation. And I have seen numerous guys get questions about calls for the very reason we are discussing here.

BTW, I do know someone that knows Jamie Luckie rather well and if I cared I would ask me to contact him. But what is the point and if he told me something, I certainly would not pass it here. I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

I know officials who have worked 20 years and aren't any better now than when they started. The learning curve is not equal for everyone. And I know instructors that are great at teaching but not so much at applying those principles themselves.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

I know officials who have worked 20 years and aren't any better now than when they started. The learning curve is not equal for everyone. And I know instructors that are great at teaching but not so much at applying those principles themselves.

Yep, I have a lot to accomplish.



Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.

Camron, stop trying to make so much sense. Sense doesn't work with some people. By the way, I wish I could work with more people like you and IUGrad.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by refguy

Camron, stop trying to make so much sense. Sense doesn't work with some people. By the way, I wish I could work with more people like you and IUGrad.

That'll be nice to see when you each start calling fouls and violations in each other's primary area.

[refguy]

Anyone besides Jeff care to answer those scenarios?
You just agreed that there are situations during a game where there are no primary areas, and where the diagram in the book is irrelevant to who should blow the whistle. And just because you have a player or two in your primary according to the book doesn't mean that's where you should officiate. Officiate the closest competitive match-up not the wood or players that are just standing there picking their nose. I would hope as an instructor you are teaching this? BTW. those 2 players that may have been in the L's primary weak side were good examples of nose pickers.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

Which one was it, "0" players or two players? If I recall one of your fellow, "there was contact" brothers said there were two players earlier. There were two players standing dead in the Lead's area. The two players (the one that fell and the player trailing) came from the middle of the court around the circle. There was a screen that was in the circle to try to free the Kansas player that fell. All that action is easily what the C is watching. Not to say the Lead could not have seen the screen, but he had two players that might have come to the basket either to defend or catch a pass.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.

It wasn't? Ball in the half court. Trail in the half court in-bounding the ball, all players in the half court, sounds pretty typical to me. Now during a throw-in I have no problem if the Lead extends their coverage, but that was not an in-between play. That was a play that took place outside of the 3 point line and concluded way in the Trail's area with no one covering the thrower.

You have to do a little better than that if you think you are going to change my mind. It is not happening. I have seen the play enough to try to see why the Lead could have called this. I saw nothing other than an iffy play that the Trail passed on.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Which one was it, "0" players or two players? If I recall one of your fellow, "there was contact" brothers said there were two players earlier. There were two players standing dead in the Lead's area.

As I clearly stated, it started with 0 with 2 drifting in at the time of the contact.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The two players (the one that fell and the player trailing) came from the middle of the court around the circle. There was a screen that was in the circle to try to free the Kansas player that fell. All that action is easily what the C is watching.

Actually, by the time of the point in question, they were well outside the lane on the L/T side (not from the middle/circle), the C would have either long since given up on them since he had several more matchups to watch or was watching the screening action...which was not the point of the foul...the fouler came from the opposite side.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not to say the Lead could not have seen the screen, but he had two players that might have come to the basket either to defend or catch a pass.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It wasn't? Ball in the half court. Trail in the half court in-bounding the ball, all players in the half court, sounds pretty typical to me. Now during a throw-in I have no problem if the Lead extends their coverage, but that was not an in-between play. That was a play that took place outside of the 3 point line and concluded way in the Trail's area with no one covering the thrower.

In how many typical halfcourt sets is the trail standing on or behind the division line? In how many typical halfcourt sets does the lead have 0 players in their primary, even if for just a few seconds?

They may have been in the "halfcourt" but the players were not in a typical alignment for typical halfcourt coverage.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have to do a little better than that if you think you are going to change my mind. It is not happening. I have seen the play enough to try to see why the Lead could have called this. I saw nothing other than an iffy play that the Trail passed on.

Peace