Stay out of my pond!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.

Camron, stop trying to make so much sense. Sense doesn't work with some people. By the way, I wish I could work with more people like you and IUGrad.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by refguy

Camron, stop trying to make so much sense. Sense doesn't work with some people. By the way, I wish I could work with more people like you and IUGrad.

That'll be nice to see when you each start calling fouls and violations in each other's primary area.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

That'll be nice to see when you each start calling fouls and violations in each other's primary area.

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

That'll be nice to see when you each start calling fouls and violations in each others primary area.

Questions for any and all: Post player travels in front of the Lead. Whose primary is it?
Post player holds the ball for 5 seconds. Whose primary is it?
Post player turns away from lead to the middle and gets fouled. Whose primary is it?
Player gets fouled in transition on trail's sideline halfway between trail and lead.
Whose primary is it?
Player pulls up for 3 in transition at the FT line extended trail side. Whose primary is it?
Right handed player pulls up for a jumper on the left elbow (weak side)and gets hit on his shooting arm. Whose primary is it?

Anybody besides Jeff?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

Questions for any and all: Post player travels in front of the Lead. Whose primary is it?

It depends. Where is the player? How many bodies are in the area?

Originally Posted by refguy

Post player holds the ball for 5 seconds. Whose primary is it?

College the Lead does not count closely guarded. Same goes for my state, but apparently that is OK in NF.

Originally Posted by refguy

Post player turns away from lead to the middle and gets fouled. Whose primary is it?

Center has some coverage, so does the Trail. Depends on where the ball is located.

Originally Posted by refguy

Player gets fouled in transition on trail's sideline halfway between trail and lead.
Whose primary is it?

There is no primary coverage in transition.

Originally Posted by refguy

Player pulls up for 3 in transition at the FT line extended trail side. Whose primary is it?

There is no primary coverage in transition. All three officials might have some coverage. Likely the Center or the Trail would be on this play.

Originally Posted by refguy

Right handed player pulls up for a jumper on the left elbow (weak side)and gets hit on his shooting arm. Whose primary is it?

The center. Are you suggesting the Center cannot see this play?

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by refguy

Questions for any and all: Post player travels in front of the Lead. Whose primary is it?

I know whose primary it is, but I also know it is easier for one of the other spots to see a travel in the post than it is for the lead.

[canuckrefguy]

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

That'll be nice to see when you each start calling fouls and violations in each other's primary area.

If that's what you've taken from our comments, so be it. It couldn't be further from the truth. I think I can safely say, that none of us 'there was contact brothers' would argue that calling fouls and violations outside of one's primary, ON A REGULAR BASIS, is ok. This was 1 of 33 fouls for the game. I don't remember exactly, but I doubt there were any other egrecious 'out of primary' calls during this particular game. Now if this particular play happened 2 minutes into the game, I doubt there would have even been a thread started on this.

It was mentioned earlier that some people on here bash certain D1 officials for calling out of primary. True, but those particular officials seem to make a habit of doing this, rather than it being the exception. That is the difference. If this had been the 3rd or 4th 'out of primary' call that the L is the OP had made in this particular game, then my opinion might be different. But I don't think anyone here can say that the L had a habit of calling out of his primary, rather it truly was an exception call that he felt needed to be made.

Some here also questioned whether or not the L actually saw the play, but rather guessed because the KU player went to the floor. Do you really think that these guys make it to this level by guessing on calls? I don't. Now I don't know if John Adams agreed with the call or not, but I'm sure that the L could have easily explained to Coach Izzo what he had on that play had he been asked.

At the end of the day, a foul is a foul. If I miss a foul right in front of me, and by chance my partner 25ft away happens to get a good look because the sea of players happened to part just at the right time so he could see the play clearly, then I'm nothing more than thankful that he comes in and gets the call. Again, these are EXCEPTION SITUATIONS. Maybe I had an unexpected sneeze at the wrong time, or maybe had a brain fade, or maybe something else on the court distracted me for a split second. There are a bunch of circumstances why I, or any official, at any level, might miss a call.

Just another reason why we don't need officials peeing, figuratively speaking, on the court marking their territory. We all know, at any given time, what our primary coverage area is, so give that a rest.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Some here also questioned whether or not the L actually saw the play, but rather guessed because the KU player went to the floor. Do you really think that these guys make it to this level by guessing on calls? I don't. Now I don't know if John Adams agreed with the call or not, but I'm sure that the L could have easily explained to Coach Izzo what he had on that play had he been asked.

No one said this was a habit. We said it was a single call that by many was judged to be wrong. That does not mean the official or officials could not make mistakes. We have talked about many other mistakes this tournament. Do not make it sound as if this one had to be correct just because you like the call. What about all the other calls in the game?

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Just another reason why we don't need officials peeing, figuratively speaking, on the court marking their territory. We all know, at any given time, what our primary coverage area is, so give that a rest.

I am not sure that is correct. Based on the series of questions that were asked, and even the way this play was described, whether they know the primary coverage is really not the point. The question is do you know what is typical and what is trained. And I can tell you that John did not take too kindly to officials calling things out of their primary when I attended his camps. At least not plays that an official passed on.

Peace

[JRutledge]

I had a conversation with someone that would know much more than I would about these kinds of situations than I might ever know.

I will not say this call was the reason a certain official was held back in the past NCAA Tournament, but the call we were talking about in this thread was not seen as correct by the NCAA. Not only because the call was questionable from all the angles we all saw, but also because it was far out of the area for the calling official. And this kind of call also held back some veteran officials because they tend to call things outside of their areas during the season.

I will leave it at that.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Hmm, so let me get this straight - it is considered an incorrect call (by the NCAA) to go outside your calling area to make a questionable call?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell 'ya.

(I can't wait to see this thread reved up again...)

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I had a conversation with someone that would know much more than I would about these kinds of situations than I might ever know.

I will not say this call was the reason a certain official was held back in the past NCAA Tournament, but the call we were talking about in this thread was not seen as correct by the NCAA. Not only because the call was questionable from all the angles we all saw, but also because it was far out of the area for the calling official. And this kind of call also held back some veteran officials because they tend to call things outside of their areas during the season.

I hate being right all the time.

[refguy]

Anyone besides Jeff care to answer those scenarios?
You just agreed that there are situations during a game where there are no primary areas, and where the diagram in the book is irrelevant to who should blow the whistle. And just because you have a player or two in your primary according to the book doesn't mean that's where you should officiate. Officiate the closest competitive match-up not the wood or players that are just standing there picking their nose. I would hope as an instructor you are teaching this? BTW. those 2 players that may have been in the L's primary weak side were good examples of nose pickers.

Originally Posted by refguy

Anyone besides Jeff care to answer those scenarios?

It's tough to answer your situations because there are no absolutes or always in officiating. PCAs/diagrams are meant to serve as a guideline, but I'm learning that the main thing is about open looks.
Sometimes the official with the best open look isn't the one who should be making the call... we must decide whether going to get it or passing will help THE GAME.