Stay out of my pond!

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, the Kansas player was coming from behind another moving player.

The MSU player did not try to stop the movement of the Kansas player. They both were going in the same direction and if anyone was responsible for falling, it was the Kansas player. I guess I have been missing a lot of fouls on players that run into them. Then again, I am still waiting for the angle that shows there was contact. I still have not seen any. And even if there was contact, you cannot have a foul that the Lead should call that people cannot even agree with. Long way to get a "debatable" call for the Lead official. And this is the major point of all of this, not whether there was contact or no.

Peace

Jeff,

You talk all the time about officials at that level and how they might be better than some on here.
Do you officiate at that level? How many on here that disagree with the call officiate at the D1 level?
I really am flabbergasted that anyone who looks at that video cannot see the contact that causes the fall - whether or not you believe it's a foul.
You seem to have trouble listening to any viewpoint on most things other than your own. It really is difficult to learn anything while lacking that ability.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

Jeff,

You talk all the time about officials at that level and how they might be better than some on here.
Do you officiate at that level? How many on here that disagree with the call officiate at the D1 level?

No I do not work D1 and I never claimed to. And I never suggested that your opinion of these play has anything to do with what level you work. This was a play that if you work college ball, would be considered incorrect mechanically unless you are 100% right.

That means that your partners on the play pass (or make the call if that is appropriate) on the play, you better not have any doubt what should have been called.

And most of my college games are with college officials and if you listen to them, I and many others (cannot speak for those here) are just as good as they are, they got a break at the right time and that is why they are there.

There is obviously doubt and we even have people on each side do not even agree on the circumstances of the play. If the Trail would have called this, then we would be having a different discussion or at least this would have gone in another direction.

Originally Posted by refguy

I really am flabbergasted that anyone who looks at that video cannot see the contact that causes the fall - whether or not you believe it's a foul.

Actually the Kansas player's leg running into the other is the reason the player fell. And when Kansas player fell, the MSU player closest too him was not the player everyone accused of "causing" the contact on your side of this argument.

Originally Posted by refguy

You seem to have trouble listening to any viewpoint on most things other than your own. It really is difficult to learn anything while lacking that ability.

That is funny. I have to agree with you to be able to listen. Forget the fact that I am not the only one that feels the way that I do about the play and I watched not only what happen on my DVR and on the NCAA OnDemand (high definition feed, better than the YouTube version and more angles)

Is the reason you are trying to get personal now is you are not confident in your position? Maybe?

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No I do not work D1 and I never claimed to. And I never suggested that your opinion of these play has anything to do with what level you work. This was a play that if you work college ball, would be considered incorrect mechanically unless you are 100% right. That should be the case for every call you make in the entire game.

That means that your partners on the play pass (or make the call if that is appropriate) on the play, you better not have any doubt what should have been called. That should be the case for every call you make.

And most of my college games are with college officials and if you listen to them, I and many others (cannot speak for those here) are just as good as they are, they got a break at the right time and that is why they are there.

There is obviously doubt and we even have people on each side do not even agree on the circumstances of the play. If the Trail would have called this, then we would be having a different discussion or at least this would have gone in another direction.
Why? Aren't we on the court to get the play right? Yes there are systems in place to help achieve the highest accuracy possible in play-calling.

Do you ever see a foul that might be closer to your partner than you and call it? If you see the foul and then look to see your partner and can't, chances are he couldn't see the foul.


Actually the Kansas player's leg running into the other is the reason the player fell. And when Kansas player fell, the MSU player closest too him was not the player everyone accused of "causing" the contact on your side of this argument.
So if I trip someone and he ends up falling 10 feet from where the trip occurs, it's not a foul since he is now closer to one of my teammates.


That is funny. I have to agree with you to be able to listen. Forget the fact that I am not the only one that feels the way that I do about the play and I watched not only what happen on my DVR and on the NCAA OnDemand (high definition feed, better than the YouTube version and more angles) That's what makes observing and instructing frustrating. We will bring up a play at halftime or a timeout and the official will have no clue what we're talking about. Some people just don't see as well or know as well what constitutes a foul.

Is the reason you are trying to get personal now is you are not confident in your position? Maybe?

Peace

Whether or not Sirmons saw the foul or guessed, we'll probably never know. But he got it right. But I highly doubt he would have guessed at that stage of the game. But you never know-he didn't have a stellar last minute of the SEC Championship.
My pregame always includes, if you see a foul or violation in my primary, call it. Our first priority is to the players - not my possible hurt feelings.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

Whether or not Sirmons saw the foul or guessed, we'll probably never know. But he got it right.

Well since you are the only authority on this issue, you must be right.

Originally Posted by refguy

But I highly doubt he would have guessed at that stage of the game. But you never know-he didn't have a stellar last minute of the SEC Championship.

As I have said before, this is not about the actual person. This is about the situation. I do not know the official in question and I do not recall that I even recognize him. That being said, he is a human being and I am sure he probably had other plays in this game our throughout the post season he would like to take back. We all have had those situations and no one ever realized we even feel that way.

Originally Posted by refguy

My pregame always includes, if you see a foul or violation in my primary, call it. Our first priority is to the players - not my possible hurt feelings.

This is really at the core of this discussion. I say the same thing, but I also say "it better be right" or "Trust your partners....there is a reason they passed on a particular play." At the college level, I have very few reasons to ever call something in front of my partners because those individuals are there for a reason. Once again, it looks pretty obvious that the Trail was trying to figure out why his partner had a whistle. I have a feeling that at leas on of the Lead's partners did not agree with the call if you only look at body language. Again, if this was a great get, we would not be debating what happen and having several people break the play down with several different versions of the play. That alone tells me this should have been passed on. If I am going to call this kind of foul, I would not be happy with the debate we are having here on this topic.

Peace

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by refguy

Whether or not Sirmons saw the foul or guessed, we'll probably never know. But he got it right. But I highly doubt he would have guessed at that stage of the game. But you never know-he didn't have a stellar last minute of the SEC Championship.

I'm still waiting for you to tell us why you feel that you are so much better qualified to judge the actions of D1 officials than people who have views opposing yours.

In your own words about everybody that disagrees with you, you said "I have trouble believing that they know how to apply the basic rules of officiating". It seems that statement must apply to the majority of posters in this thread, including myself.

Again, are you a current D1 official? Have you ever officiated in a D1 regular season game? Are you an experienced D2/D3 official? Mens or Womans side?

If not, what is the highest level that you have worked and how long have you worked at that level.

I'm just trying to understand why you are so sure that you are right when the majority of posters in this thread seem to disagree completely with your assertation that the lead should always make a call like this, even if that call is far from his primary and is not obvious in any way.

And again, I await your answers.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Old_School

I'm still waiting for you to tell us why you feel that you are so much better qualified to judge the actions of D1 officials than people who have views opposing yours.

In your own words about everybody that disagrees with you, you said "I have trouble believing that they know how to apply the basic rules of officiating". It seems that statement must apply to the majority of posters in this thread, including myself.

Again, are you a current D1 official? Have you ever officiated in a D1 regular season game? Are you an experienced D2/D3 official? Mens or Womans side?

If not, what is the highest level that you have worked and how long have you worked at that level.

I'm just trying to understand why you are so sure that you are right when the majority of posters in this thread seem to disagree completely with your assertation that the lead should always make a call like this, even if that call is far from his primary and is not obvious in any way.

And again, I await your answers.

I didn't say the Lead should always make a call like this. I simply said that I feel that any official who sees a foul and does not call it simply because they can say later if asked - "Not my primary" is not fulfilling their duty to the players on the court. Why do we officiate? To see how far we can advance our career by staying safe? Or to make sure the players receive the best possible play calling?
I am by no means advocating calling fouls all over the court and ball watching when we have off-ball activity to officiate. I am a strong believer in the mechanics and floor coverage being a guide to achieve the best team product possible. Believe me, I get tired of doing games and watching games on TV where the L is calling across the paint in front of the C all game. That is another area that Mr. Adams has been cracking down on this season. He's been trying to correct a lot of veterans' bad habits - stemming from their not being critiqued for so many years- this season. But players and situations dictate coverage not a diagram in a book. This play happened equidistant between the T and L who both were closer than the C. On plays like this, it's all about who has the best angle to see through players and make the best decision.
Do we not pregame that the Center needs to officiate sideline to sideline in transition? Why? Because they will usually have the best angle on those plays even one on the opposite sideline.

As far as my own level, I prefer to keep that to myself. I strive to continue to work to help officials get better and provide opportunities to advance and move up. I believe that is my best reward. Some of these officials have moved from high school all the way to D1 and even into the D League, WNBA and NBA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

I didn't say the Lead should always make a call like this. I simply said that I feel that any official who sees a foul and does not call it simply because they can say later if asked - "Not my primary" is not fulfilling their duty to the players on the court. Why do we officiate? To see how far we can advance our career by staying safe? Or to make sure the players receive the best possible play calling?

Why does this have to be about being safe? If we disagree about this particular call that is fine with me. But it has nothing to do with trying to be safe. I feel that this was a suspect call and is magnified that it was out of the area of the calling official. I do not care about how someone advances or does not advance in relationship to this one call. It is one call. It was not a career maker or breaker. Granted the situation was critical, but I do not think the end of the world is based on this one call. And if it happened in the first 4 minutes of the half, I would have felt the same way.

Originally Posted by refguy

That is another area that Mr. Adams has been cracking down on this season. He's been trying to correct a lot of veterans' bad habits - stemming from their not being critiqued for so many years- this season. But players and situations dictate coverage not a diagram in a book. This play happened equidistant between the T and L who both were closer than the C. On plays like this, it's all about who has the best angle to see through players and make the best decision.

I have been to John's camps three times and I can tell you that this call would not have been one very well received if it is considered wrong. For the sake of this discussion, I will say that at best that is up for debate.

Originally Posted by refguy

As far as my own level, I prefer to keep that to myself. I strive to continue to work to help officials get better and provide opportunities to advance and move up. I believe that is my best reward. Some of these officials have moved from high school all the way to D1 and even into the D League, WNBA and NBA.

I completely agree with you if you want to keep your personal accomplishments to yourself. That is certainly your right to feel that way. But I think the reason that question was asked was because you took the position as if no one could disagree with you because they did not see things your way. I am very comfortable with my position on this play and came to that conclusion based on my experience and training. I am sure you came to the conclusion based on your own experiences, but do not make it sound as if no one could disagree.

Peace

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But I think the reason that question was asked was because you took the position as if no one could disagree with you because they did not see things your way.

Yes.

The quote by refguy referring to people who disagreed with his position was "I have trouble believing that they know how to apply the basic rules of officiating." I thought that statement was incredibly arrogant.

Whether a foul occurred or not is certainly debatable. Personally, I have watched the video many times and still have nor seen anything happen that I thought was a foul.

And refguy continuing to insist that it is not only OK but recommended that officials go so far out of their primary to make a call on such a highly debatable, iffy play made me wonder if refguy knows how to apply the basic rules of officiating.

He is entitled to his opinion. He is not entitled to belittle people who disagree with his opinion. That was my point, it has been made and I'll leave it at that.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Forget the fact that I am not the only one that feels the way that I do about the play and I watched not only what happen on my DVR and on the NCAA OnDemand (high definition feed, better than the YouTube version and more angles)

Jeff-

Are you speaking about the NCAA March Madness on Demand? I am curious to see the other angle(s). Thanks

-Josh

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Jeff-

Are you speaking about the NCAA March Madness on Demand? I am curious to see the other angle(s). Thanks

-Josh

Yes I am.

All this feed shows are the same angles TV showed. The YouTube version (at least the one I saw) was not as clear of a picture and did not show the many slow motion replays of this play. Also the version I saw was in a better definition image of the play. I only see the play in the high definition version and I cannot see any such contact.

Peace

[ronald]

Walter made a post and you guys ignored him.

Great call. Bet a bozo award we hear down the road it was.

Thanks.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes I am.

All this feed shows are the same angles TV showed. The YouTube version (at least the one I saw) was not as clear of a picture and did not show the many slow motion replays of this play. Also the version I saw was in a better definition image of the play. I only see the play in the high definition version and I cannot see any such contact.

Peace

Oh, I thought you mentioned that it had an overhead shot. Nevermind, I'm too lazy tonight to read back through all the posts. Thanks

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Oh, I thought you mentioned that it had an overhead shot. Nevermind, I'm too lazy tonight to read back through all the posts. Thanks

-Josh

It's easy to get confused about things.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

......... I watched not only what happen on my DVR and on the NCAA OnDemand (high definition feed, better than the YouTube version and more angles)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Dude, I have watched this play multiple times. I watched a better it on NCAA OnDemand which had a better picture and same angles........

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Oh, I thought you mentioned that it had an overhead shot.

That's what we need, a fourth official on the foor, the overhead. This call would certainly be in his primary.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's what we need, a fourth official on the foor, the overhead. This call would certainly be in his primary.

Are you suggesting the "eye in the sky"/"Madden type" referee on a wire/camera used in football? ARGH!