Stay out of my pond!

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line. And the player did not fall until 15 feet or so away from the three point line. The call was not made until after the player fell while he was lying next to the division line. Now I do not know your knowledge of three person, but no where is outside the 3 point line in the area of the Lead official. The Lead's coverage area ends at the FT line. Now in my 10 plus years doing 3 Person that is a long ways to be looking for me or anyone. And at the college level the players are much bigger and it is harder to look clearly at those players.

That's called giving your partner, who has the primary coverage, the first crack at getting the call. The T didn't so the L came in with the call. That seemed pretty obvious to me.

Likewise, the T's covereage ends at that same FT line. Am I the only one to ever see a T come in with a rebounding foul?? Is that too a long way to be looking??? Bigger players I would agree, but I would say it would be easier to see those players because of that. I could see a size 17 foot a lot clearer at 20 feet away than I could a size 9 foot.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

FACT!! You obviously did not see the video if you think the "contact" took place at the 3 point line. Just goes the show another reason this was reaching.

Yeah, I have many times. Only took the first replay when the game was on for me to see what really happened, the MSU player lower leg contact with KU player's foot. I took a snapshot of the video when the contact occurred and drew a vertical line, ended up a foot or so outside the 3-point line. My guess is that we're not talking about the same part of the entire play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The play was a basketball play; it was at a critical moment in the game. Two other officials were on the play and passed. What do I need to be ready to call? Seems like my partners have it covered and if you work enough 3 Person, you realize they can cover that. This was an NCAA Regional Semi-Final; I think my partners can handle the game at that point. If they cannot, then I am worrying too much.

How do you KNOW that the C passed? He had quite a few players in his line of sight and could have been blocked from seeing it.

You yourself, have said that D1 officials sometimes "miss one". True enough. Would it not be ok if one of the other two officials on the court come in and pick up their partner in that case, if one of them happened to see the play and were 110% sure? That's what I'd want, no matter the game's venue. Maybe you wouldn't. Thing is, this is just 1 call out of 100+ whistles during the game. Why is one whistle from out of primary considered 'worrying too much'?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

That's called giving your partner, who has the primary coverage, the first crack at getting the call. The T didn't so the L came in with the call. That seemed pretty obvious to me.

Maybe that is what you call it. That is not what they call it around me. This is not a play that started in the Center's area and ended up in the Lead's position. I do not know your officiating background, but this call would not have been very well accepted in the places I work. And this game had many cameras watching.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Likewise, the T's covereage ends at that same FT line. Am I the only one to ever see a T come in with a rebounding foul?? Is that too a long way to be looking??? Bigger players I would agree, but I would say it would be easier to see those players because of that. I could see a size 17 foot a lot clearer at 20 feet away than I could a size 9 foot.

Actually the Trail's area is above the FT line. That is the case in all mechanics (CCA Men's and Women's and NF) that most of us work other than maybe FIBA.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Yeah, I have many times. Only took the first replay when the game was on for me to see what really happened, the MSU player lower leg contact with KU player's foot. I took a snapshot of the video when the contact occurred and drew a vertical line, ended up a foot or so outside the 3-point line. My guess is that we're not talking about the same part of the entire play.

We can argue about this all day. But you are admitting that the area is not in the Lead's coverage area.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

How do you KNOW that the C passed? He had quite a few players in his line of sight and could have been blocked from seeing it.

The same way you know that the Lead actually saw contact and did not guess.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

You yourself, have said that D1 officials sometimes "miss one". True enough. Would it not be ok if one of the other two officials on the court come in and pick up their partner in that case, if one of them happened to see the play and were 110% sure? That's what I'd want, no matter the game's venue. Maybe you wouldn't. Thing is, this is just 1 call out of 100+ whistles during the game. Why is one whistle from out of primary considered 'worrying too much'?

Because there is (a lot) debate if the call is right. And if I am going to get a call outside of my area, I cannot have this much debate over it and feel comfortable. And I bet the Trail might not agree that it was a good call. Maybe he does by reviewing tape, but his initial reaction was not necessarily positive. His body language sure was not “you saved me.” The Trail’s body language was much more like, “What tha…..”

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We can argue about this all day. But you are admitting that the area is not in the Lead's coverage area.

Peace

Feel free to look back, but none of my posts were arguing the fact that this was Lead's coverage. I'm just not getting all riled up because L came in and took that call. That was how the OP started, right?

I don't think you understood my point on T coming in for a rebounding foul. I was giving you a 'reverse' example to ponder and......well, never mind.

I will, by default, give D1 officials the respect and make the assumption that they are only making calls that they see. This is something, I think, we are all told/taught in our first years of officiating.

I will not though, that because a D1 official doesn't blow his whistle, assume it is because he is passing on the play. That's taking an assumption to an unjustified level.

I'm glad you brought up the reaction of the Trail official. I agree, his reaction wasn't positive and his body language was very negative. To me, that is inexcusable and is basically throwing his partner under the bus. Save it for the locker room.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Feel free to look back, but none of my posts were arguing the fact that this was Lead's coverage. I'm just not getting all riled up because L came in and took that call. That was how the OP started, right?

I don't think you understood my point on T coming in for a rebounding foul. I was giving you a 'reverse' example to ponder and......well, never mind.

I did not say you suggested this was in the Lead's area. You could not make that claim anyway. Also a rebounding situation is very different.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I will, by default, give D1 officials the respect and make the assumption that they are only making calls that they see. This is something, I think, we are all told/taught in our first years of officiating.

We are? First of all I see people ripping D1 officials all the time here. I even see people ripping the top names. I wonder why this play is given so much deference to this one call. And I can think of a certain official that calls all over the court and the very same people on the opposite side of this issue from me often point out how bad this particular official is. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I will not though, that because a D1 official doesn't blow his whistle, assume it is because he is passing on the play. That's taking an assumption to an unjustified level.

Well I am not assuming anything, the covering official did not call anything. That usually means you passed on the play.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm glad you brought up the reaction of the Trail official. I agree, his reaction wasn't positive and his body language was very negative. To me, that is inexcusable and is basically throwing his partner under the bus. Save it for the locker room.

I agree, but telling.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I am not assuming anything, the covering official did not call anything. That usually means you passed on the play.
Peace

Nice try. Earlier you said, "Two other officials were on the play and passed." You obviously were talking about T and C. So if you weren't making an assumption for C, what would you call it?

You're assuming C saw it and passed. Possible. But it is also possible he just didn't see the play. So yes, Jeff, you are assuming (unless you know Jamie Luckie personally and he told you he saw it and passed).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Nice try. Earlier you said, "Two other officials were on the play and passed." You obviously were talking about T and C. So if you weren't making an assumption for C, what would you call it?

You're assuming C saw it and passed. Possible. But it is also possible he just didn't see the play. So yes, Jeff, you are assuming (unless you know Jamie Luckie personally and he told you he saw it and passed).

Nice Try?

Dude, if you think it was a great call, stick with that. I do not think it was a good call. I have been doing 3 Person for over 10 years and have worked hundreds of games and I am a licensed official to teach 3 Person in my state. If you do not want to accept my point of view, don't accept my point of view. And I go to camps all the time where the very officials you see on TV tell us about what we should not or should not call.

I once had a game in camp where my partner called a travel in a critical movement completely in my area and I passed on the call. The evaluator spent most of the time talking about that one call after I told the evaluator when asked I got nothing. To me this is a very similar situation. And I have seen numerous guys get questions about calls for the very reason we are discussing here.

BTW, I do know someone that knows Jamie Luckie rather well and if I cared I would ask me to contact him. But what is the point and if he told me something, I certainly would not pass it here. I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

Dude, if you think it was a great call, stick with that. I do not think it was a good call. I have been doing 3 Person for over 10 years and have worked hundreds of games and I am a licensed official to teach 3 Person in my state. If you do not want to accept my point of view, don't accept my point of view. And I go to camps all the time where the very officials you see on TV tell us about what we should not or should not call.

I once had a game in camp where my partner called a travel in a critical movement completely in my area and I passed on the call. The evaluator spent most of the time talking about that one call after I told the evaluator when asked I got nothing. To me this is a very similar situation. And I have seen numerous guys get questions about calls for the very reason we are discussing here.

BTW, I do know someone that knows Jamie Luckie rather well and if I cared I would ask me to contact him. But what is the point and if he told me something, I certainly would not pass it here. I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

I know officials who have worked 20 years and aren't any better now than when they started. The learning curve is not equal for everyone. And I know instructors that are great at teaching but not so much at applying those principles themselves.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.