player control?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Not near rule book. Player on floor with ball firmly between legs. Player control?

Also reference # on player control. Thanks

There is no rule that defines whether this is holding the ball.

There's also no rule that says this is kicking the ball.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There's also no rule that says this is kicking the ball.

I believe this scenario fits the definition of a kicking violation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I believe this scenario fits the definition of a kicking violation.

You might wish to revise your belief.

4-29: KICKING -- Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You might wish to revise your belief.

4-29: KICKING -- Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.

And I believe it fits that description. It may be a light strike, but it's a strike.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

And I believe it fits that description. It may be a light strike, but it's a strike.

Just to play devil's advocate:
B5 is standing still with his back to the play (guarding A5) when the ball comes flying from the backcourt, bounces right behind him, and gets lodged between his legs due to no effort or movement from him.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What I'm saying is that kicking the ball is defined as intentionally striking it. Squeezing the ball between your legs is NOT striking.

OHBBREF, if you think that NCAA and NFHS rules are the same except for the shot clock, you're sadly mistaken.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Are you talking specifically about the rules for kicking violations? If not, you couldn't be more wrong.

FED RULE
Rule 9
SECTION 4 TRAVEL, KICK, FIST
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-44, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.
NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.

FED definition
Rule 4
SECTION 29 KICKING THE BALL
Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.


NCAA RULE
Rule 9
Section 6
A Player shall not travel or with the ball, intentionally kick it, strike it with the fist or cause it to pass through the basket and enter the cylinder from below.
NCAA Definition
Rule 4
Section 45
Art 1 kicking the ball is striking it intentionally with any part of the leg or the foot
Art 2 Accidentally stricking the ball with the foot or leg shall not be a violation.

NCAA Case Play
Kicking the Ball
A.R. 104. A1 is on the floor with the ball lodged between the upper part
of the legs. B1 attempts to gain possession of the ball by placing
two hands firmly on the ball; however, A1 applies vice-like
force with the upper legs, which prevents B1 from gaining possession
of the ball.
RULING: A1 has committed a kicking violation. Kicking the ball is
defined as striking the ball intentionally with any part of the leg. The
intent of this rule is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage by
using any part of the leg. Since A1 was not holding the ball in his or
her hands, B1’s firm placement of his or her hands on the ball does
not constitute a held ball.
(Rule 4-45)


Where are the differences?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Where are the differences?

That's why i asked if you were talking specifically about kicking rules, or about all the rules in general being identical except for the shot clock. The way your post was worded, you were speaking of all the rules; but the context of the thread made me think maybe you were talking about kicking only. Thanks for clarifying.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just to play devil's advocate:
B5 is standing still with his back to the play (guarding A5) when the ball comes flying from the backcourt, bounces right behind him, and gets lodged between his legs due to no effort or movement from him.

If the player allows the ball to drop to the floor immediately and noone else is trying to gain control of the ball I got nothing however if the player grabs the ball from between the legs or moves in any direction with one foot I have a kick. Because either of the other actions requires control of the ball.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

And I believe it fits that description. It may be a light strike, but it's a strike.

Disagree. The rule clearly states that to be a kick the player must intentionally strike the ball with the leg or foot. Leg strikes ball.

The ball "striking" or otherwise contacting the leg (lightly or otherwise) is not a kick, absent a ruling to the contrary from NFHS.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Disagree. The rule clearly states that to be a kick the player must intentionally strike the ball with the leg or foot. Leg strikes ball.

The ball "striking" or otherwise contacting the leg (lightly or otherwise) is not a kick, absent a ruling to the contrary from NFHS.

I've stated my opinion - a player intentionally holding the ball between his/her legs has struck the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I've stated my opinion - a player intentionally holding the ball between his/her legs has struck the ball.

What would you have in my post #15 in this thread?

[BktBallRef]

Okay. So if a women squeezes a man between her legs, she's striking him?

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I've stated my opinion - a player intentionally holding the ball between his/her legs has struck the ball.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how about this situation:

It is illegal to strike the ball with a closed fist. Player holds the ball in front of him/her between two closed fists. Violation?

I say no, but if you're saying that holding the ball between the legs is the same as striking the ball ("a light strike") then my scenario is no different...

[deecee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You might wish to revise your belief.

4-29: KICKING -- Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.

I guess the contact with both legs holding the ball is neither intentional nor a strike...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

I guess the contact with both legs holding the ball is neither intentional nor a strike...

The question isn't whether it's intentional; it's whether it constitutes a strike. In college, it's clear due to the ruling (not the rule) that it's a strike. In high school, no such ruling exists.