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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 09:27am
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Player Control and Team Control fouls

Question about the penalty associated with player control (charge) and team control (illegal offensive screen) fouls. And also, are they reported against the player (5) and team foul (bonus, double bonus) count.

I'm a rookie ref who recently worked a JV game with an experienced ref who is coming back to bball after a 10 year hiatus.

At a recent game my partner called quite a few charges and illegal offensive screens. He called for free throws, which I administered. The coach was questioning my partner during the game.

The next day, and experienced ref who happened to be watching the game called me and said the penalty rule of player control and illegal offensive screens has changed, and foul shots should not have been taken.

Guidance?
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
Question about the penalty associated with player control (charge) and team control (illegal offensive screen) fouls. And also, are they reported against the player (5) and team foul (bonus, double bonus) count.

I'm a rookie ref who recently worked a JV game with an experienced ref who is coming back to bball after a 10 year hiatus.

At a recent game my partner called quite a few charges and illegal offensive screens. He called for free throws, which I administered. The coach was questioning my partner during the game.

The next day, and experienced ref who happened to be watching the game called me and said the penalty rule of player control and illegal offensive screens has changed, and foul shots should not have been taken.

Guidance?
Do not shoot FTs on the PC and TC fouls....change of direction only....
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
Question about the penalty associated with player control (charge) and team control (illegal offensive screen) fouls. And also, are they reported against the player (5) and team foul (bonus, double bonus) count.

I'm a rookie ref who recently worked a JV game with an experienced ref who is coming back to bball after a 10 year hiatus.

At a recent game my partner called quite a few charges and illegal offensive screens. He called for free throws, which I administered. The coach was questioning my partner during the game.

The next day, and experienced ref who happened to be watching the game called me and said the penalty rule of player control and illegal offensive screens has changed, and foul shots should not have been taken.

Guidance?
In the first paragraph, you are correct. In each case, report the foul to the scorer's table: they each count towards the player's foul count, and the team's foul count. Note however that a 'charge' is different than a 'player control' foul, if using the definitions properly.

The 'experienced ref' you mention is correct. There are no foul shots due to the bonus situation for the illegal screens that were called, if that team had control of the ball. We call these team control fouls.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 09:58am
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Sometimes, "experienced refs who are retruning" are worse than rookies -- they haven't kept up on the rules changes and still think thay know all the rules
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 10:28am
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Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
Guidance?
Get into the rules book. Things like whether PC fouls count against player and team foul counts and administering FTs are pretty basic.

Read it, read it, read it again. Knowing the rules isn't all there is to being a good official - but you can't be a good official if you don't have a basic understanding of the rules.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 11:27am
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I'm with jdw..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
Question about the penalty associated with player control (charge) and team control (illegal offensive screen) fouls. And also, are they reported against the player (5) and team foul (bonus, double bonus) count.

I'm a rookie ref who recently worked a JV game with an experienced ref who is coming back to bball after a 10 year hiatus.

At a recent game my partner called quite a few charges and illegal offensive screens. He called for free throws, which I administered. The coach was questioning my partner during the game.

The next day, and experienced ref who happened to be watching the game called me and said the penalty rule of player control and illegal offensive screens has changed, and foul shots should not have been taken.

Guidance?
Get into the rules book. Know the rules. Look up definitions, study case plays. Then you will know what is correct.

Now, how to deal with returning veteran who does not have an understanding of the rules? This is where you will find great advice and guidance.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 11:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by referee99 View Post
Get into the rules book. Know the rules. Look up definitions, study case plays. Then you will know what is correct.

Now, how to deal with returning veteran who does not have an understanding of the rules? This is where you will find great advice and guidance.
This site is great but for something like this you need to get into the rules book like most have said before me. When I first started out and something happened in a game I worked and I wasn't sure if I was correct, I pulled out the rules book when I got home.

In your situation you should check the Rule 10 summary under penalties....
1. no free throws
b. for a player control or team control foul
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 11:47am
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And remember that there are other PC fouls than charging. Any foul committed by the player with the ball is PC, This can include pushing (such as "backing down" the defender), illegal use of hands (such as controlling the defender's hand -- holding or pushing it), or holding (the "hook" move).

And there are other TC fouls than the illegal screen. Any foul committed by a player on the team in control of the ball is a TC foul, such as holding, illegal use of hands (the swim move), or pushing.

I'm sure you already know this, but it's important to keep all these terms in your consciousness during a game. It makes it easier to explain what you called when the coach asks nicely.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 11:59am
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Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
It makes it easier to explain what you called when the coach asks nicely.
My face is too busy doing this when a coach asks something nicely.

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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 12:13pm
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
It makes it easier to explain what you called when the coach asks nicely.
Juulie - you used "coach" and "nicely" in the same sentence. Aren't you feeling well?
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 02:14pm
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Okay, the team control thing is a change. But did your partner actually award free throws on player control fouls?
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 04:02pm
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I have a question, why did you just accept what he told you? Why did not challenge him on this. The PC Foul has not had FTs involved in it for some time (if ever, but I have not been working this long).

This is the reason you have to work hard to learn the rules when you are not working and not accepting what a veteran might say or do. You have to know these things, rookie or not. These after all are basic rules. If you where unsure of the rules look them up immediately after the game.

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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 06:34pm
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Originally Posted by mj View Post
When I first started out and something happened in a game I worked and I wasn't sure if I was correct, I pulled out the rules book when I got home.l
Do it in the locker room, too.

And, not only will you (likely) learn the answer to the play that happened, you might stumble across the answer to some other question that's been rattling around in your brain.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 07:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
Any foul committed by the player with the ball is PC,
Any common foul. . .

I know it's a little thing, but intentional and flagrant fouls can be committed by the player with the ball; these are not player control fouls.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 08:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
I'm a rookie ref who recently worked a JV game with an experienced ref who is coming back to bball after a 10 year hiatus.
At a recent game my partner called quite a few charges and illegal offensive screens. He called for free throws, which I administered. The coach was questioning my partner during the game.
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The first year we went to TC fouls I think all of us had to think carefully about them until we got used to the idea of not shooting. Your returning partner will need to readjust his thinking and learn some new things if he's been out 10 years. Lots of changes in 10 years. That said, learn from his mistakes and you will always own those rules when things like this arise.
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