legal or illegal dribble

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by CoachP

I "pushed" the ball to the floor and it eversoslightly moved after I let go...a dribble.

So you are saying the phrases "pushed the ball to the floor" and "placed the ball on the floor" are interchangeable? I disagree.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you are saying the phrases "pushed the ball to the floor" and "placed the ball on the floor" are interchangeable? I disagree.

A dribble is BALL MOVEMENT caused by a player...

...pushed, placed, batted, tapped, purposely dropped, rolled.....all kinds of verbs

[CoachP]

Just hung up with the assignor from our area.
They're calling it a dribble.



Just Another Ref, FWIW I do see both sides......

[mick]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Just hung up with the assignor from our area.
They're calling it a dribble.

Makes sense to me !

[Back In The Saddle]

Since when do "NFHS rules" and "making sense" belong in the same sentence?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Since when do "NFHS rules" and "making sense" belong in the same sentence?

Say it again, Brother BITS!

Can I get an "Amen!" from the congregation?!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Since when do "NFHS rules" and "making sense" belong in the same sentence?

And, we could remember that there are a finite number of words in the book to cover an infinite number of possibilities. Since the play being discussed is extremely unlikely, it would not likely be one of the defined possibilities.

If we were defining the rules of this new-fangled game called basketball, would we want the play to be legal or illegal? How do we think the FED would rule (what is the "intent and purpose" of this rule)?

Sometimes this rule-book lawyering is mental stimuilation. Sometimes, it's mental .... well, lets just say that it might cause us to go blind.

[Back In The Saddle]

I have started to say something on this subject more than once during this thread, and never actually done it. So I'm glad you brought it up.

All kidding aside, I think the NFHS basketball rules are fairly well done, especially compared to some other rules books I've experienced. And the way they've been done is well suited to the game. I'm also of the philosophical bent that, generally, if a play/action/whatever isn't specifically ruled illegal, it is legal. That is the root of my argumentativeness on this. It clearly does not meet the definition of a dribble.

But...applying the WWJND test: The dribble is legal method of advancing the ball while still maintaining player control. The associated rules all have to do with maintaining a balance of offense and defense based around this activity. But what the OP describes, is just some guy who stops advancing the ball, sets it on the floor and wipes his hands on his socks, and then continues play. Any 10 second count doesn't stop. The ball is available to the defense. And I'm not sure how to balance offense and defense during gratuitous hand wiping. I don't see how the game benefits by defining this unusual action as anything, let alone as equivalent to advancing the ball down court by bouncing it.

Now if players begin doing what Mick describes, it would have to be addressed. One way would be to define the placing the ball on the floor and picking it up to be a dribble. Another would be to state that a five second count does not stop if the player places the ball on the floor. I'd favor the second approach because it has less potential for unintended consequences from messing with a long-standing fundamental definition.

If the NFHS ever addresses the issue, I probably won't have much to say about it no matter what they decide. Unless they really screw it up like the recent backcourt interp.

I'll stop now, while I only need glasses.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by CoachP

A dribble is BALL MOVEMENT caused by a player...

...pushed, placed, batted, tapped, purposely dropped, rolled.....all kinds of verbs

If that is the only part of the definition you consider, then a pass is also a dribble, a try is also a dribble, tapping a jump ball is also a dribble, grabbing a rebound is also a dribble...there's going to be a heckuva lot of illegal dribble violations in that game.

Fortunately, the actual definition limits the universe of possible ball movements to two specific ones: batting or pushing the ball to the floor.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

If that is the only part of the definition you consider, then a pass is also a dribble, a try is also a dribble, tapping a jump ball is also a dribble, grabbing a rebound is also a dribble...there's going to be a heckuva lot of illegal dribble violations in that game.

Fortunately, the actual definition limits the universe of possible ball movements to two specific ones: batting or pushing the ball to the floor.

No, I just stopped there to emphasize "ball movement"....a lot of things have to happen before you can 100% prove a definition. For example, A1 passes to A2. Is it a pass or a dribble?? We don't know till the "play" is finished. If A2 catches it, it was a pass. If A2 ran away and A1 caught back up and started bouncing it, it was a dribble.

Same with my theory. A1 pushes ball to floor, lets go, ball moves, A1 picks up...end of dribble.

Or using previous post of the case book:

casebook 4.15 " It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once"

I could use the theory that holding it does not constitute a dribble so therefore letting go does.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by CoachP

I could use the theory that holding it does not constitute a dribble so therefore letting go does.

And then I could come back and say case play 4.44.5 SitB says there is a difference between the two. A player on the floor is allowed to stand up, as long as they are dribbling, but they are not allowed to place the ball on the floor, then stand, then be the first to touch it again. So, doesn't that say "placing the ball on the floor" is not the same as "dribbling"? Two distinct acts (dribbling vs. placing) while doing the same thing (standing up), where one is legal and one is a violation.

(Oh, crap, here comes my headache again...)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

4.44.5 SitB: A player on the floor is allowed to stand up, as long as they are dribbling, but they are not allowed to place the ball on the floor, then stand, then be the first to touch it again. So, doesn't that say "placing the ball on the floor" is not the same as "dribbling"? Two distinct acts (dribbling vs. placing) while doing the same thing (standing up), where one is legal and one is a violation.

Great citation M&M Guy.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And then I could come back and say case play 4.44.5 SitB says there is a difference between the two. A player on the floor is allowed to stand up, as long as they are dribbling, but they are not allowed to place the ball on the floor, then stand, then be the first to touch it again. So, doesn't that say "placing the ball on the floor" is not the same as "dribbling"? Two distinct acts (dribbling vs. placing) while doing the same thing (standing up), where one is legal and one is a violation.

(Oh, crap, here comes my headache again...)

And therein lies my headache.

A1 goes sliding across the floor to gather a loose ball. When he stops he can place it on the floor, stand, but not touch it again.

But if A1 runs across the floor, secures a loose ball, sets the ball on the floor; some here are saying, not only is he allowed to touch it, he can pick it up and dribble it??

[rockyroad]

Don't have my books here, and too lazy to walk out to the car on a Saturday morning - but doesn't the case play involving the player placing ball on floor, standing up, then picking up the ball say that the player has committed a traveling violation? If so, what does that have to do with this argument about illegal dribble???

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by CoachP

A1 goes sliding across the floor to gather a loose ball. When he stops he can place it on the floor, stand, but not touch it again.

This is specifically forbidden by the case play. 4.44.5 B

But if A1 runs across the floor, secures a loose ball, sets the ball on the floor; some here are saying, not only is he allowed to touch it, he can pick it up and dribble it??

This is not specifically forbidden by anything.