legal or illegal dribble

[mick]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Yes, we have a definitive statement clarifying the standing still and holding scenario. We have no such statement clarifying placing the ball on the floor. So we are left with...

"A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

Placing the ball on the floor doesn't fit that definition. The end result of placing the ball on the floor doesn't even resemble a dribble. So why bring out the shoe horn?

:shrug:

Because....

Player A, standing still and holding the ball, is closely guarded. To avoid a closely guarded count, Player A puts the ball on the floor and thereby removes player control because he is neither dribbling, nor holding.

If we allow Player A to do that once,... or several times, then Player A may run the clock for quite a while.

By simply deemimg that the released ball is a dribble, we have eliminated the need to change, or clarify, other rules like player control, closely guarded, 5-seconds and dribble.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mick

Because....

Player A, standing still and holding the ball, is closely guarded. To avoid a closely guarded count, Player A puts the ball on the floor and thereby removes player control because he is neither dribbling, nor holding.

If we allow Player A to do that once,... or several times, then Player A may run the clock for quite a while.

By simply deemimg that the released ball is a dribble, we have eliminated the need to change, or clarify, other rules like player control, closely guarded, 5-seconds and dribble.

Definitely an interesting scenario. And your proposed rules change would be a simple, and probably very effective, way to address the situation. If it ever becomes an issue.

[just another ref]

I guess everybody has a vote here, and my vote is no way is this a dribble.
I think it's clear that there is no definitive answer in the books to this question.
I agree with the philosophy which has been stated here many times in varying degrees: When in doubt, lean toward the no call.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I guess everybody has a vote here, and my vote is no way is this a dribble.
I think it's clear that there is no definitive answer in the books to this question.
I agree with the philosophy which has been stated here many times in varying degrees: When in doubt, lean toward the no call.

So..., while the player is wiping his hands on his socks and his coach requests a time-out, do you grant it ?

[M&M Guy]

Or, one other question - what is the call if a player, while laying on the floor and holding the ball, set/places/(does not drop or push or throw) the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball?

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Or, one other question - what is the call if a player, while laying on the floor and holding the ball, set/places/(does not drop or push or throw) the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball?

By my scenario, he can pick it up, but has ended his dribble.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

By my scenario, he can pick it up, but has ended his dribble.

Well, the reason I asked was that 4.44.5B says that is a traveling violation. So, since we can call a travel in this instance where the ball is placed on the ground, I would assume that means the rules committee is saying placing is not the same as dribbling, especially since we know if the player is dribbling, they can then stand up (ala Curly Neal). Also, this seems to indicate that even though they are not actually "holding" the ball, and they are not dribbling, they are still considered having player control?

My head hurts.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mick

So..., while the player is wiping his hands on his socks and his coach requests a time-out, do you grant it ?

I would not, since in my estimation he is neither holding nor dribbling the ball =
no player control.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I guess everybody has a vote here, and my vote is no way is this a dribble.

What, since nobody said you don't get a vote, you assume that you get a vote? That kind of thinking started this mess!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mick

Because....

Player A, standing still and holding the ball, is closely guarded. To avoid a closely guarded count, Player A puts the ball on the floor and thereby removes player control because he is neither dribbling, nor holding.

The closely guarded count then becomes irrelevant because B1 picks up the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mick

Player A, standing still and holding the ball, is closely guarded. To avoid a closely guarded count, Player A puts the ball on the floor and thereby removes player control because he is neither dribbling, nor holding. If we allow Player A to do that once,... or several times, then Player A may run the clock for quite a while.

What an unexpected twist this thread has taken. mick has come up with the oddest "one in a million games" play that I've seen in a long time. He has a great imagination, but we must be able to address this with rules, and/or interpretations. By pushing the limits of a reasonable basketball play, we are forced to better understand the rules, and interpretations.