legal or illegal dribble

[M&M Guy]

Or, one other question - what is the call if a player, while laying on the floor and holding the ball, set/places/(does not drop or push or throw) the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball?

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Or, one other question - what is the call if a player, while laying on the floor and holding the ball, set/places/(does not drop or push or throw) the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball?

By my scenario, he can pick it up, but has ended his dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mick

So..., while the player is wiping his hands on his socks and his coach requests a time-out, do you grant it ?

I would not, since in my estimation he is neither holding nor dribbling the ball =
no player control.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

By my scenario, he can pick it up, but has ended his dribble.

Well, the reason I asked was that 4.44.5B says that is a traveling violation. So, since we can call a travel in this instance where the ball is placed on the ground, I would assume that means the rules committee is saying placing is not the same as dribbling, especially since we know if the player is dribbling, they can then stand up (ala Curly Neal). Also, this seems to indicate that even though they are not actually "holding" the ball, and they are not dribbling, they are still considered having player control?

My head hurts.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, the reason I asked was that 4.44.5B says that is a traveling violation. So, since we can call a travel in this instance where the ball is placed on the ground, I would assume that means the rules committee is saying placing is not the same as dribbling, especially since we know if the player is dribbling, they can then stand up (ala Curly Neal). Also, this seems to indicate that even though they are not actually "holding" the ball, and they are not dribbling, they are still considered having player control?

My head hurts.

Your rule [4.44.5B] says "while holding the ball".
Yet you said in your sitch that he put the ball down and then stood.

Your head should hurt.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

Your rule [4.44.5B] says "while holding the ball".
Yet you said in your sitch that he put the ball down and then stood.

Your head should hurt.

Mick, not meaning to be argumentative (or JR-like), but double-check the case play I'm referring to. It says, once a player is on the floor, that, "Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unles A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball."

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Mick, not meaning to be argumentative (or JR-like), but double-check the case play I'm referring to. It says, once a player is on the floor, that, "Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unles A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball."

Aha! the case book, I thought you said rule.

"I see !", said the blind carpenter as he pciked up his hammer and saw.
Thanks.

So then putting the ball down, releasing it, and being first to touch is a violation if you are on the floor, but it is nothing if you are standing, other than loss of player control and all it's ramifications ?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by mick

Aha! the case book, I thought you said rule.

"I see !", said the blind carpenter as he pciked up his hammer and saw.
Thanks.

So then putting the ball down, releasing it, and being first to touch is a violation if you are on the floor, but it is nothing if you are standing, other than loss of player control and all it's ramifications ?

No, the violation was because the player changed the status of their pivot foot by standing up - not because they placed the ball on the floor and then picked it back up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

"I see !", said the blind carpenter as he pciked up his hammer and saw.

Would you hold the nail for the blind carpenter?

Originally Posted by mick

So then putting the ball down, releasing it, and being first to touch is a violation if you are on the floor, but it is nothing if you are standing, other than loss of player control and all it's ramifications?

That's where I'm confused, and the reason my head is starting to hurt. How can the rules committe consider it to be a travel, unless there is player-control? So, can a player who places the ball on the ground still be considered having player-control? Can they place the ball on the ground, start to stand up, then request a TO before picking up the ball? I wouldn't think so.

Hence my confusion.

[Back In The Saddle]

Don't over think this one. It is an outlier, a one-off exception to the traveling rules. The action described is not traveling based on the rules in the rules book, in fact it contradicts those rules. It is traveling only because in this specific scenario the rules committee basically punted, called it traveling, and put it in the case book.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

It is traveling only because in this specific scenario the rules committee basically punted, called it traveling, and put it in the case book.

It's traveling because the player's action is a deliberate attempt to evade the traveling rule. So they include it as a separate "article" to the traveling rule.

[M&M Guy]

Ok, my head hurts less now.

Carry on.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I guess everybody has a vote here, and my vote is no way is this a dribble.

What, since nobody said you don't get a vote, you assume that you get a vote? That kind of thinking started this mess!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mick

Player A, standing still and holding the ball, is closely guarded. To avoid a closely guarded count, Player A puts the ball on the floor and thereby removes player control because he is neither dribbling, nor holding. If we allow Player A to do that once,... or several times, then Player A may run the clock for quite a while.

What an unexpected twist this thread has taken. mick has come up with the oddest "one in a million games" play that I've seen in a long time. He has a great imagination, but we must be able to address this with rules, and/or interpretations. By pushing the limits of a reasonable basketball play, we are forced to better understand the rules, and interpretations.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Mick, not meaning to be argumentative (or JR-like), but double-check the case play I'm referring to. It says, once a player is on the floor, that, "Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unles A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball."

Hey, Johnny-come-lately, I pointed that out 40 posts ago back in post #11.