Please help clarify - 'half step' rule

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hell, I watched about 2 minutes of game 2 of the NBA Finals and I saw a step step step step dunk no-called. There was a coupla minutes to go when I switched it on....LA was just coming back with a coupla minutes to go in the fourth.....some furriner with about 14 consonants in his name picked up the ball and.....honest to God.....took four(4) steps and then dunked the ball. No whistle. I shook my head, laughed, said "that's enough of this sh!t" and then turned it off again. Saw a story on the ESPN website the next day that said the NBA admitted that traveling shoulda been called. Well, no sh!t, Sherlock. Stevie Wonder coulda called that one.

So are you saying it's likely that Scrappy has actually passed on the occasional step step monster dunks in his illustrious career? Despite claiming otherwise?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So are you saying it's likely that Scrappy has actually passed on the occasional step step monster dunks in his illustrious career? Despite claiming otherwise?

Likely.... but never intentionally.....

Betcha that he never missed a 4-stepper though.....

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Likely.... but never intentionally.....

Betcha that he never missed a 4-stepper though.....

I betcha he would take a good look at the gym before he left if he intentionally called a 2 stepper.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Then what is it? Are you saying that college officials intentionally ignore traveling violations? Because that's what it sounds like to me. And I seriously doubt that is the case. (And it's also a gross exaggeration -- maybe an intentional one -- to say that there are 20 missed traveling violations in any college game.)

I really don't giveash!t what it sounds like to you, interpret it any way you like. Nor do I care if you disagree with my 20 missed traveling violations a game. College officials are getting just as bad as NBA officals in ignoring traveling. That's my opinion, right or wrong. But it's not wrong just because you disagree with it.

I already did tell you why. It's a very difficult call at high speeds. It can be very difficult to determine exactly when the dribble ended and then also determine which foot, if any, was on the floor at that point.

It's not difficult to tell when:

A shooter catches a pass and takes two steps while stepping up to the 3 point line.

A player changes his pivot while holding the ball.

A Big with his back to the basket steps with his right foot and then with his left foot on his roll to the basket.

I see these calls ignored in every game I watch. They're easy calls but they aren't being made. If it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be a POE. You can deny it all you want but I've got the proof on DVR.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by pistol

Up until a few years ago the Travel rule in FIBA was different.
A player could gather up the ball, jump off 1 or 2 feet (As in Rebounding) land on 2 feet parallel (jump stop) then pivot and shoot.It was a great move that confounded US players in International Games.
That is why you see the players in the NBA who learned under this rule to "take the extra step". Ginobli does it all the time. Back in 2001 they were allowed this in FIBA.I forget when it changed.
Now the travelling rule is the same for all and should be called consistently.

Pistol,

The travel rule in FIBA was the same in 2000 as it is now. I have the 2000 FIBA rule book to prove it. It may have been different prior to 2000 as that was my first year officiating. I doubt that it was EVER legal to jump off two feet and land on two feet. FIBA officials, correct me if I'm wrong.

Here is the 2000 FIBA rule:

Art. 35 Travelling
35.1 Definition
35.1.1 Travelling is the illegal movement of one or both feet beyond the
limits outlined in this article in any direction whilst holding a live ball
on the court.
35.1.2 A pivot is when a player who is holding a live ball on the court steps
once or more than once in any direction with the same foot, whilst
the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact
with the floor.
OFFICIAL BASKETBALL RULES 2000
RULE SIX - VIOLATIONS
May 2000
Page 43 of 92
3a-00e
35.2 Rule
35.2.1 Establishing a pivot foot
• A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor may
use either foot as the pivot foot. The moment one foot is lifted,
the other becomes the pivot foot.
• A player who catches the ball whilst moving or dribbling may
stop as follows:
− If one foot is touching the floor:
▫ That foot becomes the pivot foot as soon as the other
foot touches the floor.
▫ The player may jump off that foot and land on both feet
simultaneously, then neither foot can be the pivot foot.
− If both feet are off the floor and the player:
▫ Lands on both feet simultaneously, then either foot may
be the pivot foot. The moment one foot is lifted, the other
becomes the pivot foot.
▫ Lands on one foot followed by the other foot, then the
first foot to touch the floor is the pivot foot.
▫ Lands on one foot, the player may jump off that foot and
land on both feet simultaneously, then neither foot can be
the pivot foot.
35.2.2 Progressing with the ball
• After having established a pivot foot whilst having control of a
live ball on the court:
− On a pass or a shot for a field goal, the pivot foot may be
lifted but may not be returned to the floor before the ball
is released from the hand(s),
− To start a dribble, the pivot foot may not be lifted before
the ball is released from the hand(s).
• After coming to a stop when neither foot is the pivot foot:
− On a pass or a shot for a field goal, one or both feet may be
lifted but may not be returned to the floor before the ball
is released from the hand(s).
− To start a dribble, neither foot may be lifted before the
ball is released from the hand(s).
35.2.3 Player falling, lying or sitting on the floor
It is legal when a player, whilst holding the ball, falls on the floor
or, whilst lying or sitting on the floor, gains control of the ball.
It is a violation if the player then slides, rolls, or attempts to
stand up whilst holding the ball.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I really don't giveash!t what it sounds like to you, interpret it any way you like. Nor do I care if you disagree with my 20 missed traveling violations a game. College officials are getting just as bad as NBA officals in ignoring traveling. That's my opinion, right or wrong. But it's not wrong just because you disagree with it.



It's not difficult to tell when:

A shooter catches a pass and takes two steps while stepping up to the 3 point line.

A player changes his pivot while holding the ball.

A Big with his back to the basket steps with his right foot and then with his left foot on his roll to the basket.

I see these calls ignored in every game I watch. They're easy calls but they aren't being made. If it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be a POE. You can deny it all you want but I've got the proof on DVR.

And I still agree with this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So are you saying it's likely that Scrappy has actually passed on the occasional step step monster dunks in his illustrious career? Despite claiming otherwise?

Back in my first 2-3 years of officiating I was working post/base level military basketball tournament. Both my partners were veteran officials who had some college officiating experience. I had a 1-on-zero fast break in which the player obviously travelled in getting his steps together before his monster dunk. I blew my whistle and called a travel. During the next time-out my partners came up to me (with smiles on their faces) and said I should have passed on it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Back in my first 2-3 years of officiating I was working post/base level military basketball tournament. Both my partners were veteran officials who had some college officiating experience. I had a 1-on-zero fast break in which the player obviously travelled in getting his steps together before his monster dunk. I blew my whistle and called a travel. During the next time-out my partners came up to me (with smiles on their faces) and said I should have passed on it.

Of course.

But Scrappy would blow the whistle every single time on this regardless of where he is.

At least that's what he wants us all to believe.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Back in my first 2-3 years of officiating I was working post/base level military basketball tournament. Both my partners were veteran officials who had some college officiating experience. I had a 1-on-zero fast break in which the player obviously travelled in getting his steps together before his monster dunk. I blew my whistle and called a travel. During the next time-out my partners came up to me (with smiles on their faces) and said I should have passed on it.

Which is what happened in the 4th quarter of Game 2 in Boston. They passed on it. Anybody who's ever watched a game could see he picked the dribble up at the 3 point line and ran the rest of the way to the dunk.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

But Scrappy would blow the whistle every single time on this regardless of where he is.

I'm going to clarify a little, and if you want to call it backtracking, I guess I can't blame you. I would never intentionally pass on BNR's scenario in my primary. Your comment about "regardless of where he is" made me re-think position on the floor. I might not call this if it were directly in front of my partner.

I think BNR's partners did him a disservice by suggesting that he ignore it. JMO.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm going to clarify a little, and if you want to call it backtracking, I guess I can't blame you. I would never intentionally pass on BNR's scenario in my primary. Your comment about "regardless of where he is" made me re-think position on the floor. I might not call this if it were directly in front of my partner.

Not sure why ignoring this vital rule out of your primary is consistent with the rest of what you've posted on this topic. After all 2 points is aften a lot at the more challenging levels and we both understand the concept of a game saving call. Obviously the step step dunk travel call is not a game saving call in your opinion.

Just wanted to comment on that, no need to beat this to death further.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Back in my first 2-3 years of officiating I was working post/base level military basketball tournament. Both my partners were veteran officials who had some college officiating experience. I had a 1-on-zero fast break in which the player obviously travelled in getting his steps together before his monster dunk. I blew my whistle and called a travel. During the next time-out my partners came up to me (with smiles on their faces) and said I should have passed on it.

Why?

[pistol]

Ok Guys I'm going to resolve this once and for all. I officiated FIBA basketball since 1972 and for 10 years before that NCAA rules.
The following is taken from the 1986 OfficialFIBA Rule book describing progressing with the ball as FIBA called it. I retired from officiating after 43 years following the 2005 season so I can't really recall when FIBA actually went to NCAA travelling rules.If someone wants I can go through all the rules changes and tell you but who really cares???
Anyway here is the way it was until they changed:


Article 54 Progressing with the ball: A player may progress with the ball in any direction within the following limits:

Item1-A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot , using either foot as the pivot foot.

Item2 - A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop or in getting rid of the ball.

The first count occurs:

(a) as he receives the ball if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it,or
(b) as either foot touches the floor or as both feet touch the floor simultaneously after he receives the ball if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.


The second count occurs when, after the count of one, either foot touches the floor or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.

A player has come to a STOP at the first count of the two count rhythm, is not entitled to a new movement within the second count.

When a player comes to a legal stop, if one foot is in advance of the other he may pivot but the rear foot only may be used as the pivot foot. However, if neither foot is in advance of the other, he may use either foot as the pivot foot.

ITEM3 - A player who receives the ball while standing still or who comes to a legal stop while holding the ball,

(a) may lift the pivot foot or jump when he shoots for goal or passes, but the ball must leave his hands before one or both feet again touch the floor.

(b) may not lift the pivot foot, in starting a dribble, before the ball leaves his hands.
To progress with the ball in excess of these limits is a violation.

Since my scanner is broken I typed this verbatim from the 1986 FIBA rulebook Sanctioned by the president , Central Board , FIBA Mr Robert Busnel France

The following case situations were taken from the 1986-1990 official case book:
(Note the rules changed every 4 years with the Olympics)
-
Case 299 P39 PLAY- A1 receives the ball in the air, lands with both feet touching the floor simultaneously, jumps into the air and again lands with both feet touching the floor simultaneously. A-1 then pivots.
RULING - Legal movement, provided A-1 does not come to a stop and the end of the first count of the two count rhythm ( ART 54)

Note : That covers the catching with 2 feet jumping to 2 feet then pivoting argument. Every FIBA trained player in Low post did this on offensive rebounding situations. Did this ever piss off the Americans when it was allowed! And it was allowed because it was legal!!!Here is another version:

Case 300 P40 Play- After A-1 Has received the ball while in the air, both feet touch the floor simultaneously. He then springs into the air, landing (a) with neither foot in advance of the other: or (b) with one foot in advance of the other. A-1 then pivots, takes a step toward the basket with his non pivot foot, lifts his pivot foot and shoots for goal before the pivot foot returns to the floor.
RULING - Legal. A-1 has used a two -count rhythm in coming to a legal stop in both (a) and(b). In (a) either foot may be the pivot foot; in (b) only the rear foot may be used as the pivot foot.
(Art 54)

Nice move eh!! ( That's Canadian eh!!)

Case 301 PLAY - A-1 receives the ball while his left foot is touching the floor. He stops then springs into the air and lands with both feet touching the floor simultaneously.
RULING - Violation. A player who has come to a stop at the first count of the two count rhythm is not entitled to a new movement within the second count (Art54)

Beginning to understand ???

Case 302. Play - A-1, while in the air, gains possession of the ball on a rebound and lands on(a) one foot or (b) on two feet simultaneously, leaps backward and lands either on two feet simultaneously or on one foot. A-1 then pivots.

RULING - Legal movement in (a) and (b) provided A-1 did not come to a stop at the end of the first count of the two-count rhythm (Art 54)

There are more cases but I think you all must get the idea.

This version of the traveling rule resulted in really spectacular moves by mostly European players. Had the likes of MJ or Kobe used them it would have been fun to watch.

I hope this resolves this question once and for all!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pistol

The following is taken from the 1986 OfficialFIBA Rule book describing progressing with the ball as FIBA called it.

Since my scanner is broken I typed this verbatim from the 1986 FIBA rulebook Sanctioned by the president , Central Board , FIBA Mr Robert Busnel France

I hope this resolves this question once and for all!

Great. You just resolved all our problems by citing rules that are twenty-two(22) years old. Yup, that certainly ought to do it.

Thanks for the contribution.

[Kelvin green]

Here some of my thoughts on this.

1) I firmly believe that one of the reasons that an "obvious travel" gets missed at a higher level may becaue it wasn't that obvious. If you are in a game with the big guys (NBA and D-1 type players) There may be a lot more things going on to watch than the guys feet. If you are truly refereeing the defense, the ball handler may be secondary especially in a game with screens, rolls, etc. The offenders feet are the last place I may be looking when reffing fast big guys going at each other.

2) How many travel calls are you going to call a night. If you are a purist AND and called exactly by the rules, bring your sleeping bag because you'll be there all night ( how bout a blown whistle every time down the floor) There are lots of travels we dont call each game. We miss a lot of them because it might have looked like a good basketball move, or we did call it because it was out of place and player got an advantage...

3) If you are reffing the NBA finals a Kobe's got an uncontested dunk,.... Hey all those fans did not pay to hear you blow the whistle...