Double Dribble???

[Raymond]

I was on the sideline the other day during pick-up ball and the following play happened:

A1 (about 6'4" with extremely long arms) grabs a long rebound and starts to dribble to push the ball up the court. His first dribble is with his right hand then on the 2nd dribble he attempts to dribble behind his back from his right hand to his left hand but the ball his left heel and comes straight up behind him. He reaches back with his left hand (remember his long arms?) and continues his dribble without missing a beat.

Is this a double dribble? One of my buddies on the sideline immediately turned to me and asked the question and I didn't have an answer for him. I haven't gone to check the rulebooks yet.

[Adam]

Pretty sure it's an "illegal dribble," but I'll have to check my book for the rule reference.

[Raymond]

I guess by NCAA rule 4-21 it would be a illegal/double dribble:

Art. 3. During a dribble, the ball may be batted into the air, provided that it is permitted to strike the playing court one or more times before the ball is touched again with either hand.

So my question is how many of us would have called it in a real game? And say a player is just standing still dribbling the ball and one of his/her dribbles went off the top of his/her foot and they continued to dribble. Would we call a double/illegal dribble?

Not understanding this guys
When did A1s dribble end?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Not understanding this guys
When did A1s dribble end?

Ch1, per the NCAA rule it is a violation b/c of the italicized portion cited below:

Art. 3. During a dribble, the ball may be batted into the air, provided that it is permitted to strike the playing court one or more times before the ball is touched again with either hand.

With all due respect, that rule is about "batting a ball in the air" during a dribble.
I didn't see where that had anything to do with your OP

I was under the impression that he dribbled once, went behind the back (give it to a guard) & the ball hit his heel, then he just continued the dribble

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

With all due respect, that rule is about "batting a ball in the air" during a dribble.
I didn't see where that had anything to do with your OP

I was under the impression that he dribbled once, went behind the back (give it to a guard) & the ball hit his heel, then he just continued the dribble

In the rule book "batting a ball in the air" is the definition of a dribble.

4-21.Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats, pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the rule book "batting a ball in the air" is the definition of a dribble.

4-21.Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats, pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.

Not trying to nit pick, just want to understand this. Beginning a dribble by batting the ball to the playing surface isn't batting the ball in the air. I think we're discussing two different situations here.

Ummm calling Nevada come in Nevada...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Not trying to nit pick, just want to understand this. Beginning a dribble by batting the ball to the playing surface isn't batting the ball in the air. I think we're discussing two different situations here.

Ummm calling Nevada come in Nevada...

The space between his hand and his heel would be considered "air", correct?

It's still a situation in which is A1 has already begun his dribble and he touches the ball twice with either hand before it strikes the floor. That's what makes it an illegal dribble.

But as I asked before, how many of us would call a violation in this situation? I don't know that I would, especially with how fast the play happened.

Still don't get it... casebook play perhaps?
Out of curiousity is there any rule support to have an interupted dribble?


At any rate, I won't be making that call. Play on player!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The space between his hand and his heel would be considered "air", correct?

It's still a situation in which is A1 has already begun his dribble and he touches the ball twice with either hand before it strikes the floor. That's what makes it an illegal dribble.

But as I asked before, how many of us would call a violation in this situation? I don't know that I would, especially with how fast the play happened.

I disagree...."into the air" is not referring to the general dribble but a specific action of batting the ball upwards during a dribble. To fully grasp this, you must go back to the beginning of the game and follow how the rules changed. In the beginning, a player was only allowed to run if they were not holding the ball. There were no specifics on how they could move beyond just that they could not hold the ball. So, the dribble was "invented". Some clever chap figured out that he could do what was referred to as an "air dribble"...repeatedly batting the ball up without ever letting it hit the floor. This was ultimately viewed as unfair and it led the to rule requiring that the ball hit the floor after being batted the ball into the air. So, a player dribbling down the floor, can still, if they so wish, bat the ball upwards with the hand under the ball as long as it hits the floor before the next dribble.

Assuming my assertion is true leads to the implication that there is nothing in the rule that categorically prohibits touching the ball with both hands on the same dribble. The rules only prohibit touching the ball with both hands simultaneously (ends the dribble). It would be legal for a player to push the ball towards the floor with one hand and then deflect the ball with the other hand as long as both hands were both in contact with the ball at the same time.

As for this case, I'm calling it an interrupted dribble if there is any question. It was only a matter of luck that it came to a position where he could continue the dribble. The interruption was very short but it did deflect off the dribbler (just to a convenient position).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

1)Still don't get it... casebook play perhaps?

2) Out of curiousity is there any rule support to have an interrupted dribble?

Citing NFHS rules but NCAA rules are the same.....

1) Casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a)-- violation because ball was touched twice in the air during the dribble before the ball touched the floor.

2) Imo, no. The ball was never loose nor nor did it get away from the dribbler, and the dribbler also never lost player control. Iow, it doesn't meet the definition of an "interrupted dribble" under rule 4-15-5

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree...."into the air" is not referring to the general dribble but a specific action of batting the ball upwards during a dribble. To fully grasp this, you must go back to the beginning of the game and follow how the rules changed. In the beginning, a player was only allowed to run if they were not holding the ball. There were no specifics on how they could move beyond just that they could not hold the ball. So, the dribble was "invented". Some clever chap figured out that he could do what was referred to as an "air dribble"...repeatedly batting the ball up without ever letting it hit the floor. This was ultimately viewed as unfair and it led the to rule requiring that the ball hit the floor after being batted the ball into the air. So, a player dribbling down the floor, can still, if they so wish, bat the ball upwards with the hand under the ball as long as it hits the floor before the next dribble.

Assuming my assertion is true leads to the implication that there is nothing in the rule that categorically prohibits touching the ball with both hands on the same dribble. The rules only prohibit touching the ball with both hands simultaneously (ends the dribble). It would be legal for a player to push the ball towards the floor with one hand and then deflect the ball with the other hand as long as both hands were both in contact with the ball at the same time.

As for this case, I'm calling it an interrupted dribble if there is any question. It was only a matter of luck that it came to a position where he could continue the dribble. The interruption was very short but it did deflect off the dribbler (just to a convenient position).

so following this logic, I can tap the ball with my right hand, then my left hit my left thigh, bouncing it up into the air again to my right hand, down to my right toe back up to the right hand then to the floor all the while moving down the floor.......ummmmmm I don't think so....it is illegal to touch the ball with each hand before it touches the floor....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cmathews

....it is illegal to touch the ball with each hand before it touches the floor....

...or twice with one hand.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Citing NFHS rules but NCAA rules are the same.....

1) Casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a)-- violation because ball was touched twice in the air during the dribble before the ball touched the floor.

2) Imo, no. The ball was never loose nor nor did it get away from the dribbler, and the dribbler also never lost player control. Iow, it doesn't meet the definition of an "interrupted dribble" under rule 4-15-5

This is the correct ruling. The action of that player was an illegal dribble.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree...."into the air" is not referring to the general dribble but a specific action of batting the ball upwards during a dribble.

That is correct, and the action is allowed provided that it meets certain conditions.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To fully grasp this, you must go back to the beginning of the game and follow how the rules changed. In the beginning, a player was only allowed to run if they were not holding the ball. There were no specifics on how they could move beyond just that they could not hold the ball. So, the dribble was "invented". Some clever chap figured out that he could do what was referred to as an "air dribble"...repeatedly batting the ball up without ever letting it hit the floor. This was ultimately viewed as unfair and it led the to rule requiring that the ball hit the floor after being batted the ball into the air. So, a player dribbling down the floor, can still, if they so wish, bat the ball upwards with the hand under the ball as long as it hits the floor before the next dribble.

Also correct and well explained. The "air dribble" was banned as if done by a tall player it did not give a short player a fair opportunity to make a play on the ball.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Assuming my assertion is true leads to the implication that there is nothing in the rule that categorically prohibits touching the ball with both hands on the same dribble. The rules only prohibit touching the ball with both hands simultaneously (ends the dribble). It would be legal for a player to push the ball towards the floor with one hand and then deflect the ball with the other hand as long as both hands were both in contact with the ball at the same time.

COMPLETE RUBBISH!!!
You just wrote above that a rule requires that a player must allow the ball to strike the floor after batting it into the air during a dribble. Touching it again prior to that would constitute an "air dribble" which you just noted was illegal. I cannot figure out how you could logically come to such a conclusion given what you stated immediately prior. Of course, your conclusion is incorrect.
Imagine a player attempting to split a double-team by using a variant of a crossover dribble. The offensive player is dribbling with his right hand with two opposing players come to trap him. He sees this and turns to his left as the ball rebounds up from the floor to his right hand. He now shifts the ball across his belly to his left hand and dribbles on the other side of his body while stepping past the two defenders. Do you believe that move is legal?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As for this case, I'm calling it an interrupted dribble if there is any question. It was only a matter of luck that it came to a position where he could continue the dribble. The interruption was very short but it did deflect off the dribbler (just to a convenient position).

Fortunate or not, the action was illegal since the ball did not strike the floor prior to being touched again. See the casebook play cited by Jurassic. I'd call this a violation everytime. It is not within the discretion of an official to not call a clear violation of the rules simply because he believes that the situation was strange.