Double dribble?

[JugglingReferee]

Hey,

Ok, I had a play that I think is a violation. I'll describe it here.

Player is dribbling, and sees a hole to the bucket and takes it, right down the middle of the key. Just below the FT line, a defender steps in the way, and the player quickly, and athletically (to avoid a PC), picks up his dribble and does the spin move, his first step to get around the defender and the next to take a step closer to the hoop. There was no travel here.

Another defender comes over and might have blocked the shot had the dude shot. At least, that's what I was thinking as trail. And that's what the ball carrier might have thought as well, because he just directs the ball off the backboard (read: his own backboard) and his momentum from having jumped carries him forward, where he catches the "rebound" and puts up an easy 2 points.

To me, the initial time that the ball hit the backboard was not a try, but a mechanism to avoid the defender who had good shot-blocking position. IOW, had he been fouled after he released the ball, I was not going to bail him out by giving him 2 shots. (If he was fouled before he released, I would not have known his intention.)

Did this player commit a violation? [Fed rules.]

The game was at campus rec last night. I play on a team, and after my game, there was one game where they were short an official, so I helepd out. As fate would have it, this guy who did this play, and a girl on his team, I know from refereeing them when they were in high school.

[Indy_Ref]

If the "toss" can pass as a shot, no violation, otherwise, travel.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
If the "toss" can pass as a shot, no violation, otherwise, travel.

Hmmm...based on what rule would you call this a travel?

If the ball hits the backboard, you have to consider it a shot. There's nothing in the rules that allow you to call it anything else. It may be a bad shot but it's still a shot.

Sounds like he made a helluva play to me.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Hmmm...based on what rule would you call this a travel?

If the ball hits the backboard, you have to consider it a shot. There's nothing in the rules that allow you to call it anything else. It may be a bad shot but it's still a shot.

Sounds like he made a helluva play to me.

A friend called me up about this one.... 4-40-2: "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgement is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand as a foul could prevent the release of the ball.

You could use the bold text to rule that the player did something to circumvent the rules, however, I can't determine where inthe rule book/case book there is a call on this.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Hey,

Ok, I had a play that I think is a violation. I'll describe it here.

Player is dribbling, and sees a hole to the bucket and takes it, right down the middle of the key. Just below the FT line, a defender steps in the way, and the player quickly, and athletically (to avoid a PC), picks up his dribble and does the spin move, his first step to get around the defender and the next to take a step closer to the hoop. There was no travel here.

Another defender comes over and might have blocked the shot had the dude shot. At least, that's what I was thinking as trail. And that's what the ball carrier might have thought as well, because he just directs the ball off the backboard (read: his own backboard) and his momentum from having jumped carries him forward, where he catches the "rebound" and puts up an easy 2 points.

To me, the initial time that the ball hit the backboard was not a try, but a mechanism to avoid the defender who had good shot-blocking position. IOW, had he been fouled after he released the ball, I was not going to bail him out by giving him 2 shots. (If he was fouled before he released, I would not have known his intention.)

Did this player commit a violation? [Fed rules.]

Not a violation. See case 4.15.4C(c) -- it's the exact play (absent the spin move -- which, as you describe it (or at least as I read it) should have been a travel).

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Sounds like he made a helluva play to me.

That's what I'd say too, Tony. I just reacted to what I thought was a circumvention of the rules...but pondering the situation, it would be a very smart play! No way can I penalize that!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 15th, 2001 at 12:50 PM]

[bsilliman]

As official's we can officiate what the player 'intended' to do. That would get us into a whole new set of rules and situations.
Officiate what you see!

[bsilliman]

I meant to say 'cannot'.

[Peter Devana]

I agree with Bob Jenkins

[Todd VandenAkker]

Here's another thought on the subject. Just as a long pass (clearly not a "shot" in the official's mind) that ends up going through the basket is, by rule anyway, only 2 points (let's not go there again, though), the player's throwing the ball against the backboard in this original post might legitimately NOT be considered a shot (even if he is fouled during the act). However, the key here is that the OPPONENT'S backboard is considered the same as the floor, but a player's OWN backboard is not. Thus, if he throws it against the opponent's board, it is part of a dribble (either a continuation of the same dribble, or the start of a new dribble). But since his own board is not the same as the floor, he can throw the ball against it, catch it, repeat the move, etc. without violating. It is treated the same as a shot with respect to retrieving the ball.