If you are the R

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So if the next foul doesn't put him on the bench, and maybe if his opponent has more fouls than he has, it isn't necessary for this one to be a "good foul?"

I suppose this would also be "good for the game."

You are just adding your own spin on what I'm saying. I never said anything about calling fouls that didn't happen, or not calling fouls that did happen. I'll play your game for a minute. Do you know when you make a bad call? Do you know when you can pass on a play that could have gone either way? Do you understand simple concepts such as a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

Often the reason that a foul count is uneven is obvious. But, sometimes, there simply is no reason. I have no problem with any official being aware of the team foul count. I do have a problem with an official who is overly concerned about it for the wrong reasons, which have all been beaten to death here. But on the occasion when the foul count is 9-2 in a game where teams are playing similar styles and seem to be evenly matched, we must simply play on and let the foul count take care of itself. I once heard an official remark,
(okay, it was me) "This calling seems one-sided to me, and I'm one of the guys calling it." We must resist the urge to even it up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by TD21

I agree with everything you have said. Just know that others will say that it is your opinion and not a fact that this helps you as an official. I find it humorous that the official who use this knowledge find it helpful while those that don't find it useless. Is that the same reason my grandma think computers are a waste of time?

Knowing the information, and what you do with that information, are what's important. There are officials that will see the lopsided foul count, and all of a sudden there 3 quick fouls on the team that is behind. It's possible that team fouled 3 times, but more than likely the less-experienced crew was just trying to make it even in their minds. Unfortunately, that just lowers the crew's credibility even more than the lopsided count.

I've also been told by a couple of very experienced officials that if we know the "star" player has 4 fouls, and that player appears to have committed their 5th, that I should give it to one of their teammates who's close by. I'm not good enough to be able to make that distinction on a reaction call (especially with all the other crap floating around in my head...). Besides, tell me how that helps our credibility that we charge a foul to a player that we know did not commit a foul? Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business. But I'm not going to change what I call, or how I call it, based on the information.

So, TD21, I assume you just haven't shown your grandma the wonders of the internet yet?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TD21

You are just adding your own spin on what I'm saying. I never said anything about calling fouls that didn't happen, or not calling fouls that did happen. I'll play your game for a minute. Do you know when you make a bad call? Do you know when you can pass on a play that could have gone either way? Do you understand simple concepts such as a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole?

Nobody said anything about calling fouls that didn't happen. That, at least is a good thing agreed upon by all. But when you refer to "making sure that it is a good foul," this is when the trouble starts. If you say that the second or third foul "must be a good foul" because it will put a guy on the bench, this insinuates that it was not necessary for the first one to be a "good foul." As for being aware of a bad call when you make it, sure, sometimes you have one that looks bad in retrospect. Could that affect my next call in the same borderline situation? Possibly, but not because of the fact that it is on a star player. Does a square peg fit in a round hole? No, but if the hole is big enough, you can hide a bunch of squares and other inconsistent shapes in it and try to convince people that they fit.

[TD21]

So, TD21, I assume you just haven't shown your grandma the wonders of the internet yet? [/QUOTE]

Sometimes you just gotta say, "you're right" and move on. I'm not sure I'd have the time or patience to show her how to work it or she'd every really understand everything it could help her with. She got through life to this point without it. Why teach her something new. After all it probably would just be useless information that she wouldn't need anyway.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Often the reason that a foul count is uneven is obvious. But, sometimes, there simply is no reason.

Untrue - the reason could be...gasp...one team committed more fouls than the other?!?

As long as we know that, we do know the reason. Just don't let the coach surprise you with that fact. If you missed knowing the count, there might be a chance you missed a foul (or two). If you are already aware and have a reason, the coach might be more willing to accept that you are on top of things and probably didn't miss anything.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody said anything about calling fouls that didn't happen. That, at least is a good thing agreed upon by all. But when you refer to "making sure that it is a good foul," this is when the trouble starts. If you say that the second or third foul "must be a good foul" because it will put a guy on the bench, this insinuates that it was not necessary for the first one to be a "good foul." As for being aware of a bad call when you make it, sure, sometimes you have one that looks bad in retrospect. Could that affect my next call in the same borderline situation? Possibly, but not because of the fact that it is on a star player. Does a square peg fit in a round hole? No, but if the hole is big enough, you can hide a bunch of squares and other inconsistent shapes in it and try to convince people that they fit.

I think you are starting to get it a little.........We've got you to admit that sometimes you make a bad call. good. what scares me is instead of finding the peg that fits in the hole you'd rather put something in there that doesn't and convince people it does. So I guess you can make a call that doesn't fit and convince a coach that that is in fact what happened. But since your calls aren't wrong, they just sometimes "might" look bad, I guess you are good at convincing people that what you have done is correct, it just looks really bad. Guess you are good at hiding the "inconsistencies" in your game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Knowing the information, and what you do with that information, are what's important.

Yep. I guess that is just bad communication on your part.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've also been told by a couple of very experienced officials that if we know the "star" player has 4 fouls, and that player appears to have committed their 5th, that I should give it to one of their teammates who's close by.

I have been told the very same thing. I have never done that and never will.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business. But I'm not going to change what I call, or how I call it, based on the information.

Another statement I agree with. I just do not want to make that a really cheap foul that we have not called the rest of the game. Usually that does not happen, but it can if you are not aware from my point of view. The opposite of knowledge is ignorance. I do not want to be caught by surprise because I am not aware of a situation.

Peace

[TD21]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Untrue - the reason could be...gasp...one team committed more fouls than the other?!?

As long as we know that, we do know the reason. Just don't let the coach surprise you with that fact. If you missed knowing the count, there might be a chance you missed a foul (or two). If you are already aware and have a reason, the coach might be more willing to accept that you are on top of things and probably didn't miss anything.

But they told me that having that knowledge doesn't help you in the game it only hurts you and brings baggage you don't want. Are you telling me that you use information to help you prevent other situations that may occur? Can't you just tell the coach "coach, i don't know what the foul count is and I don't care, I call it how I see it"?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Untrue - the reason could be...gasp...one team committed more fouls than the other?!?

You got me there. Hard to argue with that one.

As long as we know that, we do know the reason. Just don't let the coach surprise you with that fact.

The main thing is not to act surprised. "Mr. Ref, we have 11 fouls and they have 3." "Yes, Coach, and your point is?"

"If you missed knowing the count, there might be a chance you missed a foul (or two).

Whether you know the count or not, there is an excellent chance that you missed some fouls on both teams. I don't know what you mean by this.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace

Hey, aren't you supposed to be on the court instead of playing on the internet?!?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TD21

Can't you just tell the coach "coach, i don't know what the foul count is and I don't care, I call it how I see it"?

I used to say that, it does not work very well. They just get mad and upset with you over what they are already thinking. Usually an answer of "Coach, you are not playing the same zone as they are..." usually shuts them up. They realize you are into the game and you realize what is going on and they either move on or keep making an issue which leads to them getting a T. Most coaches do not like to give Ts that only make an already bad situation worse. If that works for JAR, then more power to him.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TD21

what scares me is instead of finding the peg that fits in the hole you'd rather put something in there that doesn't and convince people it does.

This was a reference to your philosophy, not mine.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This was a reference to your philosophy, not mine.

You said it not me. You can't say something and then tell someone that it is their philosophy. Its like blowing your whistle and telling the coach that your partner called it not you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Hey, aren't you supposed to be on the court instead of playing on the internet?!?

My games are not until 6:00 and 9:00. I might drive over to Pontiac for the afternoon. I am actually a little bored.

Peace