If you are the R

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What doe this mean? How do you overrule the visible arrow?

If the arrow (that everyone can see) is pointing blue, and you know that it's red's turn for the AP throw-in, then when you are voicing who's ball it is, you really should be explaining why you're not following the device that is used for all participants to see who gets the next ball.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you're not going to call a foul differently from occurrence to occurrence either, then what mistakes can you prevent just by knowing that a player has 4 fouls?

See my first post in this thread.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Some information however is NEVER needed to officiate a game properly. That information includes how many fouls each player has committed. Knowing that information is of absolutely no value to an official ever imo.

Does that answer your question?

Btw, how would knowing how many fouls a player has help you officiate the "right" way?

I don't think you care that disqualified players still play after their 5th foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

See my first post in this thread.

I did, and it still didn't answer the question. So, please humor me.....

What mistakes can you prevent by knowing that a player has four fouls?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

The same mistake that I mentioned in my previous post. Read it again. I know you don't need to be spoon fed.

OK, I see where you're coming from. Now how do you stop the same scorer from making the exact same mistake when he's supposed to tell you that a player has 4 fouls?

What's the difference between having the scorer tell you when a player has four fouls versus having the scorer tell you when the player has five fouls if they're not going to do so correctly in both cases? In both cases, if they screw-up, you'll still have to straighten it out. A scorer who forgets to tell you when a player has five fouls is just as likely imo to forget to tell you when a player has four fouls.

And....... if they don't screw-up, then you don't need the information at four.

The only foolproof method imo is to mentally keep track of every foul committed by every player of both teams. Well, I certainly ain't that smart. I'll leave it up to the scorer and hope that they get it right.

Btw, just for the record I've never figured out how to stop timing errors either.

[SamIAm]

Pardon me for interupting, but I have a question for TD21.

Just like you know how some partners are going to call the game and you have to adjust for that. Or knowing how players are going to play and you have to adjust for that.

How do you know your partners are not adjusting their games for the way you call a game? What about the players that you have officiated before, but with a different partner. You adjust your game to a different partner. Isn't consistensy being distorted at this point?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If the arrow (that everyone can see) is pointing blue, and you know that it's red's turn for the AP throw-in, then when you are voicing who's ball it is, you really should be explaining why you're not following the device that is used for all participants to see who gets the next ball.

Are there three teams playing? When does white ever get the ball?

Ok, carry on.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And the fatal flaw in your logic is assuming that maybe some previous fouls weren't good fouls.

If you're calling a game consistently, evenly and fairly with regards to illegal contact, there is no reason in the world to know when any player has four fouls.

So you are expecting me to believe that in a three official game every foul call you and your partners made was a good call? Wow, guess some guys never make bad calls. I don't know about you guys but I know when I make a bad call or a call that doesn't fit the game. I am aware of it and I can admitt it. If you can't then you have a problem in the fact that you think you are always right. If you were you would be working that big tourney in March, and even those guys get some wrong. I don't understand how you can sit here and say when whatching guys working on tv, that they get stuff wrong but you don't. I'm sure you are going to say "when did I say I don't get plays wrong?" But you are assuming here that you don't when you say that "And the fatal flaw in your logic is assuming that maybe some previous fouls weren't good fouls." That you never think you make a bad call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree. You can use the knowledge of knowing that the next foul will put a team in the bonus. But.....the knowledge of whether a player has four fouls is completely different and unrelated. That type of knowledge is useless imo. And I have yet to read anything in this thread that tells me where knowing how many fouls any player has at any particular time has any possible value to an official. Saying "make it a good foul" simply leaves the wrongful impression that previous fouls may not have been "good fouls". I'd rather try to make ALL fouls "good fouls".

JR,

Once again, if it does not work for you that is fine with me. It works well for me and has for years.

I like to know everything I can about the game. It prepares me for all kinds of events and I can answer questions long before they are asked and deal with potential problems long before they take place. If you call two fouls in a row on a certain player, the reaction is very likely going to be over the top with many coaches. I also like to know what kind of players are on the floor, so we can focus on what they try to do and what they will take them out of their game when you call certain things. For example, I am working in a tournament with a team I have seen several times. The team is from Chicago and they have a freshman that is considered the best in the state (not my standards, but that is what the media says). Not only did this kid foul out from what I remember, but we have to stay on top of the team setting many illegal screens and causing possible off-ball illegal contact. This team was also by far the better team and it was a focus of our crew not to let them just manhandle the less talented team. The coach of this team is one of the most class guys I have ever been around and he clearly keeps things in perspective and never complained, but he did ask a couple of questions about their aggressiveness. If that had been another coach, they might have flipped their lid or accused the crew of calling things that would take them out of their game. I would like to know that so I have an answer for when I or the crew is confronted with that claim or questions about the way the game is being called.

If that is not how you officiate the game, then be my guest and do not do it that way. I personally do not care either way. I like to know these things and knowledge does not change how I call the game. I call the game based on the players and adjust to their style when and if necessary, but I do not pass on fouls that need to be called just because we have certain players. I honestly do not know what else to tell you. But to be accused of protecting people is not only a lie, but shows that someone is not reading what is being said and trying to put their own spin on the comments.

I worked a game a week ago where the star sat much of the game because I personally called two very quick fouls on him. Believe me, the coach went nuts. His reaction did not change my game. I just was prepared to deal with his reaction. I really do not know why that is hard to understand?

Peace

[TD21]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Pardon me for interupting, but I have a question for TD21.



How do you know your partners are not adjusting their games for the way you call a game? What about the players that you have officiated before, but with a different partner. You adjust your game to a different partner. Isn't consistensy being distorted at this point?

People always talk about consistency. Why? If I get a block charge wrong on one end am I going to come down and get it wrong on the other end just to be consistent? Two wrongs don't make a right. As for partners.......I talk about match-ups and finding who our players are in pregame. I never talk about philosophy because some guys just don't officiate the same way and it would be pointless to get into an arguement with them over it. As for adjusting to what your partners are calling, you have to see what they are doing and do the best you can. I he wants to call two bad fouls on a player in a row to sit him, that's on him. That's not saying if a coach goes crazy and needs to be dealt with I won't deal with it. And that doesn't mean I afraid to call fouls on certain players becuase I don't want to get yelled out. I am just in the camp that quality calls are always better and that is definitely true when we are dealing with fifth fouls and other situation that affect the game. If we could always be right then it wouldn't matter, but unfortunately we aren't. Some guys are better at getting more plays right than others. Each play is a single act, and each act is put together into the game. What happens in each act affects all the other acts. That's why remembering plays and knowing what you called where, when and on who helps you to make those decisions later in the game. We can't treat every play as a single act that is just a single event not part of something bigger.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TD21

So you are expecting me to believe that in a three official game every foul call you and your partners made was a good call? Wow, guess some guys never make bad calls. I don't know about you guys but I know when I make a bad call or a call that doesn't fit the game. I am aware of it and I can admitt it. If you can't then you have a problem in the fact that you think you are always right. If you were you would be working that big tourney in March, and even those guys get some wrong. I don't understand how you can sit here and say when whatching guys working on tv, that they get stuff wrong but you don't. I'm sure you are going to say "when did I say I don't get plays wrong?" But you are assuming here that you don't when you say that "And the fatal flaw in your logic is assuming that maybe some previous fouls weren't good fouls." That you never think you make a bad call.

Funny thing you said that. I know an official that worked one of the high profile "March" games and admitted that one of his partners was having a bad game and based on a couple of events went into the tank. And these are all officials that are pretty high profile and many onlookers would think these guys were almost infallible. Not only does it happen at that level, it definitely happens with officials at our levels. I know I made a few mistakes during the course of the games I had yesterday. I was saved because one of the coaches knows me and likes the way I call the game, but I would like to have one call back without a doubt. And later in that game I wanted to make sure that if I was going to call a foul on this particular player, that I was a little better the next time.

I really do not see why that is hard to understand.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

I know I'm late to this conversation, but I've gone through a couple of stages on this topic. First, I used to notice the lopsided foul count and start looking for fouls to call on the other team. After all, over a season, fouls are usually pretty even amongst teams, right? So if the foul count is uneven, we must be doing something wrong, right? Wrong. Team foul counts are affected by such things as style of play, talent level, and the teams they are playing (rivalries, etc.). If the crew is calling the game the right way, the foul counts are where they should be, even if they are 8 - 0 at some point. Then I moved on to the "I don't care what the count is" phase. I tried to ignore the count so it wouldn't affect the calls I made. Since then, I've figured out game awareness is a big deal. Being aware of when the clock starts and stops, knowing the table set the arrow the proper direction, knowing which direction the arrow is pointing so you don't have to look away from the players during the scrum, knowing who the better players are so you're aware of what the team is trying to do; all of these things add up to game awareness. Knowing the foul count is important because I want to know if we will be shooting the bonus, and I need to be able to find the shooter. If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know I'm late to this conversation, but I've gone through a couple of stages on this topic. First, I used to notice the lopsided foul count and start looking for fouls to call on the other team. After all, over a season, fouls are usually pretty even amongst teams, right? So if the foul count is uneven, we must be doing something wrong, right? Wrong. Team foul counts are affected by such things as style of play, talent level, and the teams they are playing (rivalries, etc.). If the crew is calling the game the right way, the foul counts are where they should be, even if they are 8 - 0 at some point. Then I moved on to the "I don't care what the count is" phase. I tried to ignore the count so it wouldn't affect the calls I made. Since then, I've figured out game awareness is a big deal. Being aware of when the clock starts and stops, knowing the table set the arrow the proper direction, knowing which direction the arrow is pointing so you don't have to look away from the players during the scrum, knowing who the better players are so you're aware of what the team is trying to do; all of these things add up to game awareness. Knowing the foul count is important because I want to know if we will be shooting the bonus, and I need to be able to find the shooter. If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

I agree with everything you have said. Just know that others will say that it is your opinion and not a fact that this helps you as an official. I find it humorous that the official who use this knowledge find it helpful while those that don't find it useless. Is that the same reason my grandma think computers are a waste of time?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know I'm late to this conversation, but I've gone through a couple of stages on this topic. First, I used to notice the lopsided foul count and start looking for fouls to call on the other team. After all, over a season, fouls are usually pretty even amongst teams, right? So if the foul count is uneven, we must be doing something wrong, right? Wrong. Team foul counts are affected by such things as style of play, talent level, and the teams they are playing (rivalries, etc.). If the crew is calling the game the right way, the foul counts are where they should be, even if they are 8 - 0 at some point. Then I moved on to the "I don't care what the count is" phase. I tried to ignore the count so it wouldn't affect the calls I made. Since then, I've figured out game awareness is a big deal. Being aware of when the clock starts and stops, knowing the table set the arrow the proper direction, knowing which direction the arrow is pointing so you don't have to look away from the players during the scrum, knowing who the better players are so you're aware of what the team is trying to do; all of these things add up to game awareness. Knowing the foul count is important because I want to know if we will be shooting the bonus, and I need to be able to find the shooter. If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TD21

My point to all of this was in situation such as this, when you have match ups and a player has a certain number of fouls and his next one will put him on the bench you should, for the good of the game, make sure it is a good foul.

So if the next foul doesn't put him on the bench, and maybe if his opponent has more fouls than he has, it isn't necessary for this one to be a "good foul?"

I suppose this would also be "good for the game."