If you are the R

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whatinthell has knowing how many fouls a PLAYER has have to do with "game awareness"?


But AGAIN.....none of that has a damn thing to do with having to know when any PLAYER on the court has four fouls. I defy anyone to give me a good reason for possessing that particular tidbit of knowledge if the game is being called fairly, evenly and equally. And believe me, so far nobody has even come close imo to having a good reason for their having to absolutely know when any PLAYER has accumulated four fouls.

Lah me.....Reading is fundamental.

Originally Posted by TD21

I'm gonna try this one last time and if it doesn't work then I'll just move on. First, who decides what is included in "game awareness"? You just said knowing that the foul counts are uneven is a part it. What if someone else were to come along and say it didn't matter? Who's right? Moving on............let me see if I can find out what is important to know and what isn't. Let's start simple, who the head coach is for each team? Important? Sure that way we know who can and cannot address the officials or stand and coach. Which direction each team is going? Sure, that way we know if a team scores at the wrong basket or which way to point when we give a color when the ball goes out of bounds. Good so far? Time on the clock? Now let's talk about some areas where there might be disagreement..........Possession arrow and time on the game clock? I think those are important, but I've also seen people hear argue that you should rely on the table to have the arrow correct and give you that information when needed. What happens when you have a timing error and the table can't help you? Oops if you would have been aware of the time you could have fixed the error, but instead you relied on that the table crew. Who are they gonna blame? The table? Not likely, its on you. Are you going to trust that same table with the arrow. Go ahead, why not? How about figuring out what the teams are running? Good I think so you can be ready for what is coming. If you know where they like to run a certain play and they set up into it then you can already be in position to officiate the play. Number of team fouls? Sure, it let's us know when the next foul is the bonus or double bonus so we don't look stupid and try to put the ball in play. But if we rely on the table they'll let us know its the bonus. After all we've never seen a crew put the ball in play only to have the horn buzz to let the officials they are suppose to be shooting free throws. Rely on that table! Knowing team fouls can also be helpful at the ends of close games too. If a team has fouls to give before the bonus knowing that can help us with the end of game situation. What else? This is getting long so I'll post it and continue after I get a few responses. I'm sure the question is coming on how any of this relates to knowing each plays foul count.

You answered every question except the one that he asked.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whatinthell has knowing how many fouls a PLAYER has have to do with "game awareness"?

You're talking about a whole different topic than that.

Yes, it's fine to know how many team fouls each TEAM has. Yes, it's equally fine to also know the reasons behind a disparate foul count. Doodah doodah. Those are basics that can be labeled "game awareness".

But AGAIN.....none of that has a damn thing to do with having to know when any PLAYER on the court has four fouls. I defy anyone to give me a good reason for possessing that particular tidbit of knowledge if the game is being called fairly, evenly and equally. And believe me, so far nobody has even come close imo to having a good reason for their having to absolutely know when any PLAYER has accumulated four fouls.

Lah me.....Reading is fundamental.

JR, why are you so AGAINST officials knowing that a player has 4 fouls?? I want to be aware of lots of things - how many time-outs a team has left. Whether a team has used all their 30 second time-outs. How many team fouls each team has. Do any of the players have 4 fouls. I like to know all of that stuff...like M&M said, it absolutely does NOT affect the way I call the game, but if I know these things, then my crew doesn't look like bozos when we ask the coach "Is that a full or 30, Coach?" and the coach snaps back "All I have are fulls!" and when the 5th foul is called, it doesn't take us by surprise and we are ready to handle that situation because we already knew the kid had four...why is that such a bad thing to you??

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You answered every question except the one that he asked.

If you think that knowing who the head coach is, what direction the teams are going, what the time is on the clock who has the possession arrow, what the teams are running and how many team fouls are all a part of "game awareness" then how is knowing how many fouls a player has not important? Its another piece of information that we have. It has been pointed out several times that knowing that a players next fouls is 5 and he is disqualified can save you any problems that might arise if the table fails to notify you. Now why else is it important? Because you never want to foul a player out with a cheap foul! I don't know what word or term you want me to use so you understand it. I've said marginal, cheap, ticky tac, 50/50, yet they all have the same affect. People say you are changing the way you're calling the game. No I'm not. I'm just being aware of what is going on and what the reaction of my action is. If I call a fifth foul on a player he is going to the bench and not coming back. That is true whether it is an obvious, everyone in the gym saw it or wrong call in which the official closed his eyes and guessed. Which makes more sense for us to want to happen? That's not to say that fouls 1 thru 4 aren't just as important because they are, but that 5th one is very important and it carries with it, whether we like it or not and lot more reaction from players fans and coaches. Now we can say who cares? But we all care, and it we are right and know we are right we can defend everything we have done and deal with the reactions of the coach or player as needed, if we are wrong then I hope you can atleast stand there and take the heat, because if you have to throw the coach because you made a bad call that put his best player on the bench, then you have even more problems to deal with. Now you might not have to worry about your actions in middle school games, junior varsity games and even some high school varsity games, but I can promise you in some high school games and in college there is accountability for our actions. And the best part is it is all on the tape from the game. They will look and they will decide if you were right or right with your foul call and whether you were justified in your handling of the situation. I'm sure that this response still isn't good enough for some as to why knowledge of fouls is important. I'm sure I'll still hear the old, stop worrying about what coaches think and you shouldn't change the way you call the game. So I'm done. I've given you my reasoning and that's all I can do. Use it if you want but you certainly don't have to. If you've gotten to where you want to go as an official or if doing it the way you have has worked for you then stay with it. At the end of the day is all about what works best for you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

I'm gonna try this one last time and if it doesn't work then I'll just move on. First, who decides what is included in "game awareness"? You just said knowing that the foul counts are uneven is a part it. What if someone else were to come along and say it didn't matter? Who's right? Moving on............let me see if I can find out what is important to know and what isn't. Let's start simple, who the head coach is for each team? Important? Sure that way we know who can and cannot address the officials or stand and coach. Which direction each team is going? Sure, that way we know if a team scores at the wrong basket or which way to point when we give a color when the ball goes out of bounds. Good so far? Time on the clock? Now let's talk about some areas where there might be disagreement..........Possession arrow and time on the game clock? I think actually those are important, but I've also seen people hear argue that you should rely on the table to have the arrow correct and give you that information when needed. What happens when you have a timing error and the table can't help you? Oops if you would have been aware of the time you could have fixed the error, but instead you relied on that the table crew. Who are they gonna blame? The table? Not likely, its on you. Are you going to trust that same table with the arrow. Go ahead, why not? How about figuring out what the teams are running? Good I think so you can be ready for what is coming. If you know where they like to run a certain play and they set up into it then you can already be in position to officiate the play. Number of team fouls? Sure, it let's us know when the next foul is the bonus or double bonus so we don't look stupid and try to put the ball in play. But if we rely on the table they'll let us know its the bonus. After all we've never seen a crew put the ball in play only to have the horn buzz to let the officials they are suppose to be shooting free throws. Rely on that table! Knowing team fouls can also be helpful at the ends of close games too. If a team has fouls to give before the bonus knowing that can help us with the end of game situation. What else? This is getting long so I'll post it and continue after I get a few responses. I'm sure the question is coming on how any of this relates to knowing each plays foul count.

Yup, You sureashell got that right. Your post above has got absolutely dick-all to do with what I've been saying.

Let me say it again- for the last time. There is NO advantage for any official to know when a player has four fouls. The same mistake can be made by the scorer at that point as well as when the player hits five fouls. If you call that "game awareness", then tell me what good that "game awareness" information is to you. I asked for anybody to give me a reasonable reason if they think that there is an advantage to knowing when a player has four fouls. I'm still waiting for one. And none of your irrelevant gobbledeygook above has got anything at all to do with the question that you're so fervently avoiding either.

If you can't answer that specific question, then yes, you should move on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

JR, why are you so AGAINST officials knowing that a player has 4 fouls?? I want to be aware of lots of things - how many time-outs a team has left. Whether a team has used all their 30 second time-outs. How many team fouls each team has. Do any of the players have 4 fouls. I like to know all of that stuff...like M&M said, it absolutely does NOT affect the way I call the game, but if I know these things, then my crew doesn't look like bozos when we ask the coach "Is that a full or 30, Coach?" and the coach snaps back "All I have are fulls!" and when the 5th foul is called, it doesn't take us by surprise and we are ready to handle that situation because we already knew the kid had four...why is that such a bad thing to you??

Are you really telling me that you aren't ready to handle the situation when the bench tells you that a player has five fouls if you didn't already know that they had four? Bull pucky! You'd handle it exactly the same way whether you knew or you didn't know. And if the scorer has made a mistake on the foul count somewhere, it will show up on the fourth or the fifth foul anyway, so you're gonna have to deal with it-no matter what.

Some information is useful and I never have said any thing differently. That particular bit of information about a player having four fouls just isn't useful though imho.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

That's not to say that fouls 1 thru 4 aren't just as important because they are, but that 5th one is very important and it carries with it, whether we like it or not and lot more reaction from players fans and coaches. Now we can say who cares?

who cares? Not me.

When you stop worrying about what the players, fans and coaches think, you'll start to become a better official.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, You sureashell got that right. Your post above has got absolutely dick-all to do with what I've been saying.

Let me say it again- for the last time. There is NO advantage for any official to know when a player has four fouls. The same mistake can be made by the scorer at that point as well as when the player hits five fouls. If you call that "game awareness", then tell me what good that "game awareness" information is to you. I asked for anybody to give me a reasonable reason if they think that there is an advantage to knowing when a player has four fouls. I'm still waiting for one. And none of your irrelevant gobbledeygook above has got anything at all to do with the question that you're so fervently avoiding either.

If you can't answer that specific question, then yes, you should move on.

I think the problem here is I'm not coming at the topic form a high school, junior varsity or middle school mentality. I'm coming at it form a college mentality and above. So if you think it has "NO advantage" then good for you. It is a very big advantage in the leagues I work and saves me a lot of problems. So if you want to use the foul is a foul philosophy and think that not worrying about the coaches and how they might react is the way to go, then good for you. You've been doing this much longer than I have so I'm sure you know a lot more than I. I just know what works for me, what has gotten me hired and what is keeping me working. I was only trying to share that with people here but if what I am saying is not wanted then I will stop. If we don't want to take responsibility for our actions I guess we don't have to. "Coach its not responsibility to know how many fouls your player has. I just call it like I see it and even if I'm wrong its not really my fault, I guess he shouldn't have gotten those other 4 before that one."

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

who cares? Not me.

When you stop worrying about what the players, fans and coaches think, you'll start to become a better official.

Just curious, is this your opinion or fact? What makes an official good? His abilities? The games he works? How do you separate the good from the bad? Or is not worrying about what people think the only requirement?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by TD21

If we don't want to take responsibility for our actions I guess we don't have to. "Coach its not responsibility to know how many fouls your player has. I just call it like I see it and even if I'm wrong its not really my fault, I guess he shouldn't have gotten those other 4 before that one."

I'm not saying you're right or wrong on wanting to know when a player has 4, but the above quote has absolutely zero to do with it. A player's foul count is not our responsibility...but all our calls are, and we should be ready to accept that regardless.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TD21

I think the problem here is I'm not coming at the topic form a high school, junior varsity or middle school mentality. I'm coming at it form a college mentality and above. So if you think it has "NO advantage" then good for you. It is a very big advantage in the leagues I work and saves me a lot of problems. So if you want to use the foul is a foul philosophy and think that not worrying about the coaches and how they might react is the way to go, then good for you. You've been doing this much longer than I have so I'm sure you know a lot more than I. I just know what works for me, what has gotten me hired and what is keeping me working. I was only trying to share that with people here but if what I am saying is not wanted then I will stop. If we don't want to take responsibility for our actions I guess we don't have to. "Coach its not responsibility to know how many fouls your player has. I just call it like I see it and even if I'm wrong its not really my fault, I guess he shouldn't have gotten those other 4 before that one."

This sure is a long way to spell "condescending."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

1) I think the problem here is I'm not coming at the topic form a high school, junior varsity or middle school mentality. I'm coming at it form a college mentality and above.

2) It is a very big advantage in the leagues I work and saves me a lot of problems.

1) Sooooooo..... you think that I'm coming at this from a lower level (to you) mentality. Cool. Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is that your posts to date using your "college level and above" mentality have generally been lacking sadly in the areas of actual knowledge and application. And I hate to break it to you but just saying that you are posting something that is backed by a "college level and above mentality" doesn't really make any statement true. However, what do I know anyway? Please free to post your resume though. I'll be sure to let you know if I'm suitably impressed with it.

2) Yup, very big advantage. Feel free to mention sometime exactly what the very big advantages of knowing a player has four fouls are. And what the problems are that are being saved with that knowledge. Lord knows I've asked you enough times. I'm just here to learn, same as everybody else. If I learn enough, maybe some day I'll have one of them college mentalities and above too.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I forgot to mention you always need to ask if they want the "indirect technical" rider.

Don't forget "travel insurance".

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Sooooooo..... you think that I'm coming at this from a lower level (to you) mentality. Cool. Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is that your posts to date using your "college level and above" mentality have generally been lacking sadly in the areas of actual knowledge and application. And I hate to break it to you but just saying that you are posting something that is backed by a "college level and above mentality" doesn't really make any statement true. However, what do I know anyway? Please free to post your resume though. I'll be sure to let you know if I'm suitably impressed with it.

2) Yup, very big advantage. Feel free to mention sometime exactly what the very big advantages of knowing a player has four fouls are. And what the problems are that are being saved with that knowledge. Lord knows I've asked you enough times. I'm just here to learn, same as everybody else. If I learn enough, maybe some day I'll have one of them college mentalities and above too.

Can you not read? I have already told you, given you examples and then told you again! Am I becoming a little condesending, as someone noted earlier? Yes! I guess I don't understand why your way is right and mine isn't? What facts do you have to back up your claims? Tell me, factually, how you know that I lack knowledge and applications of the rules. Tell me, factually, how my statements aren't true. Tell me why I would care if you were impressed with my resume? Have I asked you to post yours so that I know you in fact are who you say you are? Didn't think so. So now come out with the old, well you said you worked this and that yet you won't say the names of the conference and back it with facts. I don't need to. Now I'm gonna get real condesending. If you don't want to go to camp and learn the 2007 way of doing things then don't! But don't sit here and tell me what is right and what is wrong. If you want me to back up my claims with facts, back up yours. I'm waiting.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you really telling me that you aren't ready to handle the situation when the bench tells you that a player has five fouls if you didn't already know that they had four? Bull pucky! You'd handle it exactly the same way whether you knew or you didn't know. And if the scorer has made a mistake on the foul count somewhere, it will show up on the fourth or the fifth foul anyway, so you're gonna have to deal with it-no matter what.

Some information is useful and I never have said any thing differently. That particular bit of information about a player having four fouls just isn't useful though imho.

Sorry, I have to agree with Rocky.

Know the time on the game clock and the shot clock. Know which way the arrow's pointing. Know the foul count for each team. Know the score. Know if there are subs at the table. Know who's in the game & their tendencies. Know how reliable the table people are. Know how many TOs each team has. Know whatever there is to know about the game you are working, including when players are in foul trouble.

It's all part of the job. No one's saying to use any of that information to not call the best game possible. We're saying being completely aware of the game you are working will enable you to call the best game possible.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Sorry, I have to agree with Rocky.

Know the time on the game clock and the shot clock. Know which way the arrow's pointing. Know the foul count for each team. Know the score. Know if there are subs at the table. Know who's in the game & their tendencies. Know how reliable the table people are. Know how many TOs each team has. Know whatever there is to know about the game you are working, including when players are in foul trouble.

It's all part of the job. No one's saying to use any of that information to not call the best game possible. We're saying being completely aware of the game you are working will enable you to call the best game possible.

Since Jurassic isn't here let me post for him! Show me the facts! I agree that all those things can be useful except how many fouls a player has. I don't have any facts to back up my claims that everything else can be useful but I know for a fact that you don't have the knowledge or the ability to apply the rules! Show me the facts, post your resume and then maybe I'll believe you. I'm actually just saying that, because I will never believe you because that means I'd have to change my ideas of what's right. And I'm always right because you can't show me the facts!