If you are the R

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by TD21

Do you understand simple concepts such as a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole?

Yeah, it does.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by TD21

But they told me that having that knowledge doesn't help you in the game it only hurts you and brings baggage you don't want. Are you telling me that you use information to help you prevent other situations that may occur? Can't you just tell the coach "coach, i don't know what the foul count is and I don't care, I call it how I see it"?

There are many officials that are at the level where that knowledge becomes baggage. For them, the better option is to use that response, instead of thinking about foul counts and worrying about why things aren't even. But as you progress, you will see that the knowledge becomes important for other reasons.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He did say "college conferences." That is not a state issue.

Actually, Jeff, he said both. Here's his quote again:

Originally Posted by TheOracle

BTW, coaches select the post-season officials in every college conference I work. Coaches and AD's also had 100% of the input to selecting playoff officials when I worked HS post-season games.

He clearly claims that his high school experience was coaches and ADs having 100% of the say in post season officiating assignments.

[TheOracle]

Who else chooses? Anyone who chooses is directly accountable to coaches and AD's. One coach has a personal issue with you and wants you scratched? Happens to almost everyone. Five do? You have some self-evaluation to do, or you'll be staying home and losing games.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Who else chooses? Anyone who chooses is directly accountable to coaches and AD's. One coach has a personal issue with you and wants you scratched? Happens to almost everyone. Five do? You have some self-evaluation to do, or you'll be staying home and losing games.

Classic OS post.

Say something that is demonstrably untrue, and when called out, revise history and try to convince us you meant something totally different.

Either that or you truly don't understand what you're talking about. 100% would mean coaches have total control. I'm willing to bet this doesn't happen anywhere.

[pressbreak]

Originally Posted by TD21

People always talk about consistency. Why?

Because, IMHO, you ruin the game otherwise. Players are playing the game, players adjust, and coaches coach their players to adjust...thats the game. There are a lot of things to adjust to, but adjusting is part of *their* game. The lines on the court are consistent, they don't move. The height of the basket doesn't move. Your judgment of what is a charge is based on what you see: it is what it is. I (a coach) may disagree, I may think you need to go back to ref school, your partner may see things different, you may be taking a big move out of my star player that got us to this "big game"....well, maybe we can all analyze that after the game.

In the meantime, during the game we do the adjusting, we change our lineup, our D, our matchups, we cry, we yell, we do the human stuff. Like the same I ask from the ball, don't get all gestalt on me...you are human (of course ;-) you make mistakes, yeah, don't remind me! Be consistent and let me think you are a robot that has no emotions, that doesn't know this is a big game, don't care our star is in big foul trouble, etc...The gestalt ref may be the new wave though. You saythese concepts are taught in camps? Interesting, very interesting...

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by pressbreak

Because, IMHO, you ruin the game otherwise. Players are playing the game, players adjust, and coaches coach their players to adjust...thats the game. There are a lot of things to adjust to, but adjusting is part of *their* game. The lines on the court are consistent, they don't move. The height of the basket doesn't move. Your judgment of what is a charge is based on what you see: it is what it is. I (a coach) may disagree, I may think you need to go back to ref school, your partner may see things different, you may be taking a big move out of my star player that got us to this "big game"....well, maybe we can all analyze that after the game.

In the meantime, during the game we do the adjusting, we change our lineup, our D, our matchups, we cry, we yell, we do the human stuff. Like the same I ask from the ball, don't get all gestalt on me...you are human (of course ;-) you make mistakes, yeah, don't remind me! Be consistent and let me think you are a robot that has no emotions, that doesn't know this is a big game, don't care our star is in big foul trouble, etc...The gestalt ref may be the new wave though. You saythese concepts are taught in camps? Interesting, very interesting...

Huh.. Me confused...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Then I moved on to the "I don't care what the count is" phase. I tried to ignore the count so it wouldn't affect the calls I made. Since then, I've figured out game awareness is a big deal.

Knowing the foul count is important because I want to know if we will be shooting the bonus, and I need to be able to find the shooter. If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

Whatinthell has knowing how many fouls a PLAYER has have to do with "game awareness"?

You're talking about a whole different topic than that.

Yes, it's fine to know how many team fouls each TEAM has. Yes, it's equally fine to also know the reasons behind a disparate foul count. Doodah doodah. Those are basics that can be labeled "game awareness".

But AGAIN.....none of that has a damn thing to do with having to know when any PLAYER on the court has four fouls. I defy anyone to give me a good reason for possessing that particular tidbit of knowledge if the game is being called fairly, evenly and equally. And believe me, so far nobody has even come close imo to having a good reason for their having to absolutely know when any PLAYER has accumulated four fouls.

Lah me.....Reading is fundamental.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whatinthell has knowing how many fouls a PLAYER has have to do with "game awareness"?

I thought I already answered that:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business. But I'm not going to change what I call, or how I call it, based on the information.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Doodah doodah.

Whatinthehell does the Camptown Races have to do with this?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lah me.....Reading is fundamental.

I agree. (Lah me.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business.

Please explain. You're preparing to do exactly what? What would you do differently if you knew that the player had 5 fouls before the scorer informed you that, yes, the player had 5 fouls? And exactly why do you need that preparation anyway? What good exactly is the information about a player having 4 fouls to an official if you're not going to change the way that you've been calling the game?

Inquiring minds need to know.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Please explain. You're preparing to do exactly what? What would you do differently if you knew that the player had 5 fouls before the scorer informed you that, yes, the player had 5 fouls? And exactly why do you need that preparation anyway? What good exactly is the information about a player having 4 fouls to an official if you're not going to change the way that you've been calling the game?

Inquiring minds need to know.

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean ), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th. Most of the time the table realizes it is the 5th, and I've avoided putting the ball in play too early. There was one time I thought it was the player's 5th, asked the table, and the scorer told me, "Nope, it was their 4th". Put the ball in play, the other team was dribbling up the court, (no FT's, thank goodness), and the table hits the horn. The scorer was apologizing left and right (literally; he was apologizing to both benches), and we got the player out and the game re-started without a problem.

Obviously, the better the table crew, the less likely I need to worry about this. But it has just become a bit of a habit I've picked up to avoid a possible messy situation.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean ), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th. Most of the time the table realizes it is the 5th, and I've avoided putting the ball in play too early. There was one time I thought it was the player's 5th, asked the table, and the scorer told me, "Nope, it was their 4th". Put the ball in play, the other team was dribbling up the court, (no FT's, thank goodness), and the table hits the horn. The scorer was apologizing left and right (literally; he was apologizing to both benches), and we got the player out and the game re-started without a problem.

Obviously, the better the table crew, the less likely I need to worry about this. But it has just become a bit of a habit I've picked up to avoid a possible messy situation.

I completely understand your thinking on this, but what amazes me is how several people have claimed that this has happened enough times to make them concerned about it.

This is my 5th year officiating. I can recall only once, and that was a MS game, where we actually got the ball in play before being notified of 5 fouls...I guess I'm just lucky!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean ), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th.

I think the moral of this story is if you ever have a game where White 34 is a prominent player, you might want to pay attention to how many fouls this player accumulates; because scorers statewide (in Illinois anyway) have a problem keeping track of white #34.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think the moral of this story is if you ever have a game where White 34 is a prominent player, you might want to pay attention to how many fouls this player accumulates; because scorers statewide (in Illinois anyway) have a problem keeping track of white #34.

Remember, it's always different in Illinois.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whatinthell has knowing how many fouls a PLAYER has have to do with "game awareness"?

You're talking about a whole different topic than that.

Yes, it's fine to know how many team fouls each TEAM has. Yes, it's equally fine to also know the reasons behind a disparate foul count. Doodah doodah. Those are basics that can be labeled "game awareness".

But AGAIN.....none of that has a damn thing to do with having to know when any PLAYER on the court has four fouls. I defy anyone to give me a good reason for possessing that particular tidbit of knowledge if the game is being called fairly, evenly and equally. And believe me, so far nobody has even come close imo to having a good reason for their having to absolutely know when any PLAYER has accumulated four fouls.

Lah me.....Reading is fundamental.

I'm gonna try this one last time and if it doesn't work then I'll just move on. First, who decides what is included in "game awareness"? You just said knowing that the foul counts are uneven is a part it. What if someone else were to come along and say it didn't matter? Who's right? Moving on............let me see if I can find out what is important to know and what isn't. Let's start simple, who the head coach is for each team? Important? Sure that way we know who can and cannot address the officials or stand and coach. Which direction each team is going? Sure, that way we know if a team scores at the wrong basket or which way to point when we give a color when the ball goes out of bounds. Good so far? Time on the clock? Now let's talk about some areas where there might be disagreement..........Possession arrow and time on the game clock? I think those are important, but I've also seen people hear argue that you should rely on the table to have the arrow correct and give you that information when needed. What happens when you have a timing error and the table can't help you? Oops if you would have been aware of the time you could have fixed the error, but instead you relied on that the table crew. Who are they gonna blame? The table? Not likely, its on you. Are you going to trust that same table with the arrow. Go ahead, why not? How about figuring out what the teams are running? Good I think so you can be ready for what is coming. If you know where they like to run a certain play and they set up into it then you can already be in position to officiate the play. Number of team fouls? Sure, it let's us know when the next foul is the bonus or double bonus so we don't look stupid and try to put the ball in play. But if we rely on the table they'll let us know its the bonus. After all we've never seen a crew put the ball in play only to have the horn buzz to let the officials they are suppose to be shooting free throws. Rely on that table! Knowing team fouls can also be helpful at the ends of close games too. If a team has fouls to give before the bonus knowing that can help us with the end of game situation. What else? This is getting long so I'll post it and continue after I get a few responses. I'm sure the question is coming on how any of this relates to knowing each plays foul count.