If you are the R

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, now it's my turn to call Bull Sh!t.
I'm not aware of any state that gives coaches and ADs 100% of the decision power on post-season assignments. Perhaps someone else can verify.

He did say "college conferences." That is not a state issue. You are probably right that 100% is a little much, but that does not mean it is not close. College programs do have a lot of say in who does and who does not work. After all the conference is made up of schools and they hire the supervisor. If they do not like the way the supervisor of officials handles or hires officials, they find another person that is willing to do the job the way they want to. Usually the conference trusts the job of the supervisor, but there are conferences that have gotten rid of the supervisor because they did not like the officials or the philosophy of hiring and maintaining the staff.

I can speak from experience. I have worked for two people that were eventually fired from what there conferences for that very thing.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.....if you have 3 or 4 fouls on a player (star player or valued player), you better make that 5th one a good one and not call something you have not been calling the rest of the game or give a cheap one.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Knowledge and protection are two different things. I want to know when a team's next foul is going to put us in the bonus, not sure that translates to prevention from that having. I want to know something like that so I can get our shooter on that foul if necessary. If that is a hard concept to understand, you are right you do need some translation.

Peace

Thank you for that translation. You need to know when the star/valued player has 3 or 4 fouls, so you can tell if the next one puts you in the bonus.
Where did you go to camp to learn that?

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the parts in red are matters of consideration for what is a foul for you, I consider this to be problem.

The only problem here is that you don't understand simple concepts. We've already established that you are a lower level official, by your own admission, so it is evident that you don't understand the concepts being told to you. If you don't want to learn and move up then don't. My call selection isn't the problem, its the fact that no body want to learn the way thinks work in the world of officiating these days. The old concepts and ideas are disappearing. There are new ways of doing things that are studied and used by college officials that can also help high school officials. If you don't want to catch on and learn them then don't, but don't tell us that we are wrong because ou've never heard of them or can't apply them to your game

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Thank you for that translation. You need to know when the star/valued player has 3 or 4 fouls, so you can tell if the next one puts you in the bonus.
Where did you go to camp to learn that?

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with you. I have tried to discuss this issue in a very professional manner. It appears that instead you want to try to insult me which suggest that you are not going to accept what I say on its face value. That is fine with me. I am not the one struggling to find my in officiating so I must be doing something right. I think you should attend a camp first because trying to suggest what I do not know or understand. I know who I am and what I am every time I step onto a court or field. I also realize the term “knowledge” is a hard thing to grasp for you. I guess when you work games every foul is a single event and fights happen out of the blue because you want to not have knowledge of previous events or possible future events. So when you T up a coach, you must be blindsided by why he went nuts on you. I guess you see that way of officiating honorable, but I just find it as if you are officiating with blinders on. Everything we have called is going to affect how we are perceived or how coaches and players will react to you or the opponent in the future. And do not think for a second that what coaches think do not change things in your career. You get enough of them that think you are clueless you will be on the outside looking in for a long time even if your supervisor thinks you have it together. Hey, what do I know?

It is clear that your experience is the reason you are unwilling to learn something new. I can see the experience of JR, because he simply rejects the premise and has a reason why. You try to go through smoke and mirrors and suggest I am not explaining the concept very well. Why is JR able to rejected what I am saying on the merits and you cannot? Then again, you have never attended a camp and now I see why that is. And one thing you learn when attending camp is that people will tell you things you do not agree with and it is really not that big of a deal. I realize that trying to make comparisons are hard for someone that has such a closed mind. I would rather you at the very least say you just reject the philosophy than always trying to twist the concept to something you do not understand. Just do what works for you; it does seem to be working very well.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TD21

The only problem here is that you don't understand simple concepts. We've already established that you are a lower level official, by your own admission, so it is evident that you don't understand the concepts being told to you. If you don't want to learn and move up then don't. My call selection isn't the problem, its the fact that no body want to learn the way thinks work in the world of officiating these days. The old concepts and ideas are disappearing. There are new ways of doing things that are studied and used by college officials that can also help high school officials. If you don't want to catch on and learn them then don't, but don't tell us that we are wrong because ou've never heard of them or can't apply them to your game

You seem like a reasonable fellow. Let me try talking to you in plain language.
Our other esteemed associate answers direct questions by launching off on a tangent in another random direction. When you talk of giving consideration to the one on one match-up and the fact that one player already has one or more fouls when considering the next call, do you not consider that to be giving that player an advantage, or are you telling me that it is an advantage but that is just the way things are/must be/should be done at the "next level?"

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You seem like a reasonable fellow. Let me try talking to you in plain language.
Our other esteemed associate answers direct questions by launching off on a tangent in another random direction. When you talk of giving consideration to the one on one match-up and the fact that one player already has one or more fouls when considering the next call, do you not consider that to be giving that player an advantage, or are you telling me that it is an advantage but that is just the way things are/must be/should be done at the "next level?"

I never once said if its a foul but he already has one don't call it. I said according to some here, using the foul is a foul no matter how many a player has or what the situation is, its a foul. My point to all of this was in situation such as this, when you have match ups and a player has a certain number of fouls and his next one will put him on the bench you should, for the good of the game, make sure it is a good foul. Calling a second foul 2 and half minutes into a game on a center who grabs a players arm for a second but doesn't prevent that player from getting to the ball and dunking it is a bad foul call. If he prevent the player from getting the ball its a foul, nothing I can do to help him out. Do we make judgements based on who the player is and what the situation is? Of course we do. If you say we don't then you just don't get it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TD21

My point to all of this was in situation such as this, when you have match ups and a player has a certain number of fouls and his next one will put him on the bench you should, for the good of the game, make sure it is a good foul. Do we make judgements based on who the player is and what the situation is? Of course we do. If you say we don't then you just don't get it.

And this is your personal philosophy, and having it allows one to advance?
Or this is this system which is adopted by those hoping to advance?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

Now he is the MASTER of that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

It's not being worried, its knowing how they are going to react. Just like you know how some partners are going to call the game and you have to adjust for that. Or knowing how players are going to play and you have to adjust for that. The coaches are no different.

The day that you stop worrying about how coaches react to one of your calls is the day that you start learning how to become an official. Obviously, in your case that day hasn't arrived yet.

You NEVER adjust your play-calling to account for a coach's anticipated reaction. You call the game without worrying about how ANYONE -players, coaches, fans, etc.- will react to one of your calls.

Officiating isn't a popularity contest.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by TD21

when you have match ups and a player has a certain number of fouls and his next one will put him on the bench you should, for the good of the game, make sure it is a good foul.

And while you are standing there trying to remember who that is, how many fouls he has, and whether the foul was "good enough," what the heck's going on in the game? Do they all stop while you're calculating all of this?

If it's a foul, blow the damn whistle. End of story.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

BTW, coaches select the post-season officials in every college conference I work. Coaches and AD's also had 100% of the input to selecting playoff officials when I worked HS post-season games.

Yes, Old School, you've told us all about that before. And you're just as believable with your new nom de net.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

My point to all of this was in situation such as this, when you have match ups and a player has a certain number of fouls and his next one will put him on the bench you should, for the good of the game, make sure it is a good foul.

And the fatal flaw in your logic is assuming that maybe some previous fouls weren't good fouls.

If you're calling a game consistently, evenly and fairly with regards to illegal contact, there is no reason in the world to know when any player has four fouls.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

If it's a foul, blow the damn whistle. End of story.

Don gets it.

Some officials think themselves into trouble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

My call selection isn't the problem, its the fact that no body want to learn the way thinks work in the world of officiating these days. The old concepts and ideas are disappearing. There are new ways of doing things that are studied and used by college officials that can also help high school officials. If you don't want to catch on and learn them then don't, but don't tell us that we are wrong because you've never heard of them or can't apply them to your game

We? Who is "we"?

The problem is that you're presenting your opinion only. That's fine. No problem with that. Everybody is entitled to present their own opinion. Do not try to equate your opinion as being commonly accepted by anybody else though. In my experience, it isn't. Do not try to intimate that your opinion is fact either. In my experience, it's about as far from being a fact as you can get.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Knowledge and protection are two different things. I want to know when a team's next foul is going to put us in the bonus, not sure that translates to prevention from that having. I want to know something like that so I can get our shooter on that foul if necessary.

Agree. You can use the knowledge of knowing that the next foul will put a team in the bonus. But.....the knowledge of whether a player has four fouls is completely different and unrelated. That type of knowledge is useless imo. And I have yet to read anything in this thread that tells me where knowing how many fouls any player has at any particular time has any possible value to an official. Saying "make it a good foul" simply leaves the wrongful impression that previous fouls may not have been "good fouls". I'd rather try to make ALL fouls "good fouls".