If you are the R

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

A wise official once said "When you stop worrying about what the players, fans and coaches think, you'll start to become a better official".

In fact he said it in this thread.

Same wise official also said this 4th foul information is totally useless.

Your point, taken.

However, I will never suggest a scorer tell me when a player has 4. I will know without being told. Then I won't have to worry and can start to become a better official.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For the record, I never said that it was a bad thing. I said that it's useless information. If it's not going to affect the way that you call the game, then why do you need to know it anyway? I'm still waiting for that question to be answered by someone.

And what exactly is wrong with being surprised when you find out that a player has five fouls btw? What difference does it really make, one way or t'other, when you're informed by the bench?

You just said it's useless information if it's not going to affect the way you call the game. So time on the clock, possession arrow, number of team fouls, who your shooter is, are all useless pieces of information? Now explame that one to me!

[TD21]

Originally Posted by BLydic

Unfortunately a response to the OP's question regarding pre-game table talk included a suggestion that the scorer should notify the crew when a player has 4 fouls. Whether this information is useless or not seems somewhat of a personal preference. How the official gets this information might be what sours the whole discussion. Any kind of open communication with an official about the number of fouls a player has, unless it's his/her 5th, can not IMO be recommended. I can't give an example of how this would be detremental because I've never had anyone tell me that's the players 4th, but I can see where a coach from either side might not perceive this to be something we need to know.

Its on the freakin' score board for the whole gym to see!!!!!!!

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, put it down that I'm coming at this from a......wait for it........ college and above mentality.

Works for me too.

The only reason I said that was because so many people here who work only high school and below, which there is nothing wrong with, hadn't heard this before. My assumption then was that maybe its something that is only used at college and above. I personally use it in any game I work including if I were to go work a 3rd grade rec game. Its the way I officiate. But since most officials hadn't heard it, I said that I approach it from where I learned it. That wasn't a knock on anyway that doesn't work college basketball. There is a lot of informationtaught at camps by a lot of great officials out there. You would be suprised at what you could learn.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by TD21

Its on the freakin' score board for the whole gym to see!!!!!!!

Relax Francis.

My only point is about the direct verbal communication of the players 4th foul from the scorer to an official, okay? And that was when I was worried about the coaches perception. Which, btw, I am not doing any more so I can start to become a better official.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by TD21

Its on the freakin' score board for the whole gym to see!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, I forgot that obvious way of knowing how many fouls a player has. Worked a gym a couple weeks ago where they had all the players numbers and fouls on the board for each team. With all those numbers, it looked like something you would see at the dog or horse track.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TD21

You just said it's useless information if it's not going to affect the way you call the game. So time on the clock, possession arrow, number of team fouls, who your shooter is, are all useless pieces of information? Now explame that one to me!

Why? I thought that you knew everything anyway, being from the Land of College and Above.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If I am not mistaken Juggling Ref is the only one who said he likes to be notified by the table when a player has 4 fouls. The theory is that he will be prepared when the player picks up his 5th, and will not accidentally allow this disqualified player to remain in the game. He assures us that this information has no effect on the call itself. Fine, I take his word for all this and admire his good intention to go above and beyond and get everything right. First, what level of ball are we talking about here? You refer a couple of times to kids or teenagers as the scorekeepers. And here was the part that I found interesting:

{other quotes removed}

Are you saying that you have yet to see the crew that can't handle the task of notifying about the 4th foul, yet you have seen a "high number of cases" where they failed to notify you of the 5th? Or did I take something out of context?
__________________

Was going to abandon this thread as I tend to get bored reading threads that reach a thousand responses, but I will reply directly.

Prior to me asking for notice on the 4th, I had a number of cases where a 5th foul was recorded on someone and the play was already live again before the table crew could tell the on-court crew that so-and-so had fouled out. I didn't like this - it happened too often for my liking. As a coach, it would infuriate me to know that a DQ'd player was still playing. Frankly, IMHO, the officials are paid to get this stuff right.

I started to ask for 4th foul notice. For the most part, I do hear this notice. I even tell them how to tell me that so-and-so has 4 fouls. (Hold up 4 fingers.) My pre-game talk with the table goes well, and I am sure to make them laugh and learn their names.

I also make it a point to tell them that they have done their job well, and that the 4 of us (or 5) are one team. In some cases, I have even told my assignor or tournament director. I do this because way back in my HS years, I was a scorer and timer. I know that they would appreciate it if they did a good job and they heard about it afterwards.

[just another ref]

Okay, to summarize: The awareness of the 4th foul, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. As many have pointed out, the information is usually there, one way or the other, so everybody knows it. But, the only possible good that I can see is intervening if the table is late catching the 5th, and how often does this happen? It might rain, and the roof might leak, but I ain't bringing a bucket to put under it. On the other hand, if an official makes a point of noting the 4th foul, he subconsciously may give the player some slack, or, depending on the player, may have a tendency to lean the other way. (That's 5, you arrogant little turd!) Any communication of the 4th on any player from the table or between officials, in my opinion, is bound to cause people from both sides to assume the worst. (They're protecting him! They're trying to get him out!) When you bring the quality of the individual player into the equation, this is where it becomes totally unacceptable to me. Also, when we talk about stars, this sometimes dives into a murky area. The best teams, in my experience, are often the ones that do not even have a true star. Rather, they may win with balance or a different star every night. Based on some posts in this thread, I find it conceivable to take one's "college awareness game management mentality" to the game, and realize in the second half that "We've been protecting the wrong player."

[Back In The Saddle]

Okay, to summarize: Thinking for yourself = bad. Parroting what the loudest and most voluminous poster's think = good.

Thank goodness we got that sorted out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Okay, to summarize: Thinking for yourself = bad. Parroting what the loudest and most voluminous poster's think = good.

Thank goodness we got that sorted out.

Yup, that's what different between this forum and the paid side of this site. Over here you'll hear about it when you write crap.

[rockyroad]

And I still say that no one has given me a good reason to NOT know when someone has 4 fouls...so I will continue being aware of that along with all the other stuff I try to be aware of.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And I still say that no one has given me a good reason to NOT know when someone has 4 fouls...so I will continue being aware of that along with all the other stuff I try to be aware of.

EXACTLY!!!!!!! I have been working games the last few days, but this thread has still being entertaining. I tried to have as much knowledge about the key players and their foul situations and I did not call the game one time any different than I did when I did not know the information. And whatever I do must be noticed because I am working the Championship game in my tournament in the first year the assignor assigned it based on who he felt were his best officials rather than just geography (before they would allow the people that had the most travel leave earlier). My crew must be doing something right. Oh well, I guess this is just how the internet goes. If you do not do it my way, something is wrong with you.

Peace