When did this happen?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tharbert
Hey Rut, you have 33% of the posts in this thread and 66% ding you on your attitude. You were talking about a pregame comment from a non-counter. Maybe the assistant did look up to the kid. Let comments like that flow off your back like water off a duck. The alternative is that you get pissed off and it affects the way you call the game. The level of respect you hold for individuals on the court really should have no bearing on the game you call.

As for the pregame, maybe a more appropriate comment would have included the language used by all players. Why single out the habitual offender. Let the whistle do the talking. You think the coaches don't hear what's said on the court? Toss the little reprobate on the second fuc&.

I did not give a T, I did not have to. And the problem was solved. If I was picking on the kid, I think he would have not been in the game. I tried to use the moment to teach the kid something without resorting to drastic measures. I told the coach and he handled it.

I am making a larger statement or asking a larger question. I obviously handled the situation, because there was no further incident. I was not asking for help, I just wanted to know if the kids in this country have lost their mind and are the adults letting them do it? I grew up in an era where you did not even think of saying the wrong thing to adults or you would have to feel the wrath of your parents or the coach. As a matter of fact, I was pulled out of games and so were my teammates if we even tried to question an official in any way. There was no adults to back my behavior up, along with my peers.

Obviously I am not talking about a situation I cannot move on from, I was trying to get an intelligent debate or discussion about the state of young people as it relates to the way they deal with adults. Referee Magazine did have a article recently about the lack of sportsmanship of players and coaches. And sense this is suppose to be the extention of the classroom, I wonder how many teachers or principals allow their kids to talk to me Mr. Official they way the would talk to them and not be in detention or be suspended? And since we are authority figures I thought that other intelligent people here would see the point. I guess I was wrong again.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Well, so you let a player talk to you any kind of way?

If you read my original post, you'll say that I say to deal with it and move on. If I have to give a kid a T, I do so and then we get on with the game. I will continue to treat the kid with respect once it's dealt with.

Are you not in authority?

Yes, and people in authority are generally looked to with more respect than those who think they are better than others.

And if all that is the case, do you talk to your boss or the people that you work for the same as the people you work
with. Please tell me you do so I can laugh. Because the guy or gal in charge is always treated with a certain level of
respect, or you do not work there.

Laugh all you want, but the answer is yes. I treat my co-workers with the same respect that I do my boss. Brown-nosing not needed when you respect everyone.

What century do you live in where the amount of respect you give people depends upon their age and you're too good to do girls basketball? You give referees (and adults and men) a bad name. Amazing.

Z

Well that is why we have kids, these priviledged *** kids shooting up schools, killing parents and the killing teachers because we have been giving respect to all ages. I guess we are not suppose to repremand children, especially with the fact that parents and teachers are held legally responsible for the actions of minors. They are called minors for a reason ya know.

And for your boss. I guarantee you are not cursing them out about decisions that they make. If you are what century do you live in? There is always someone that judgement need to be questioned. Especially if you want to play a game, or have a job.

I think you give the human race a bad name for even saying that stupid comment.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

[/QUOTE]


I did not give a T, I did not have to. And the problem was solved. If I was picking on the kid, I think he would have not been in the game. I tried to use the moment to teach the kid something without resorting to drastic measures. I told the coach and he handled it.

I am making a larger statement or asking a larger question. I obviously handled the situation, because there was no further incident. I was not asking for help, I just wanted to know if the kids in this country have lost their mind and are the adults letting them do it? I grew up in an era where you did not even think of saying the wrong thing to adults or you would have to feel the wrath of your parents or the coach. As a matter of fact, I was pulled out of games and so were my teammates if we even tried to question an official in any way. There was no adults to back my behavior up, along with my peers.

Obviously I am not talking about a situation I cannot move on from, I was trying to get an intelligent debate or discussion about the state of young people as it relates to the way they deal with adults. Referee Magazine did have a article recently about the lack of sportsmanship of players and coaches. And sense this is suppose to be the extention of the classroom, I wonder how many teachers or principals allow their kids to talk to me Mr. Official they way the would talk to them and not be in detention or be suspended? And since we are authority figures I thought that other intelligent people here would see the point. I guess I was wrong again.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]Rut,I think you explained exactly where you're coming from a heckuva lot better in the above,than in your original post.You're certainly not the only one with these concerns.To be honest,I really don't know what the answer is,though.Most of the kids we deal with are great kids,but if their parents,coaches,school administrators,etc. don't or won't deal with their behavior,it makes our job that much harder to do.We have to keep trying,though.The bottom line is that we have to hope that these kids will change,and maybe we can be a small part of that change.Keep on truckin'!

[bard]

It also true that those who do have poor behavior make most of the noise and therefore attract most of the attention. Easily 95% of the players I've seen this year have displayed good sportsmanship. Of course, they are not the one's drawing the attention of the fans and the officials.

I probably had as many middle school kids say, "Thanks, sir" at the end of a game as I had kids who complained. That's a combination of age and having worked some Christian school games, but there's a lot of good eggs out there, too!

You're not alone on thinking the respect needs to be improved, Rut.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I was not asking for help, I just wanted to know if the kids in this country have lost their mind and are the adults letting them do it?

Yes.

I grew up in an era where you did not even think of saying the wrong thing to adults or you would have to feel the wrath of your parents or the coach. As a matter of fact, I was pulled out of games and so were my teammates if we even tried to question an official in any way. There was no adults to back my behavior up, along with my peers.

I wish it were like this. Unfortunately, you're right - the parents are often the ones driving this whole thing along.

[zebraman]

Well that is why we have kids, these priviledged *** kids shooting up schools, killing parents and the killing teachers because we have been giving respect to all ages.

Funny, I have never heard a police officer, a counselor, a psychologist, a sociologist, or even a teacher say that all our child problems are because we give the kid too much respect. I've heard that it's because the kids weren't given enough attention, but even that seems a bit simplistic.

And for your boss. I guarantee you are not cursing them out about decisions that they make. If you are what century
do you live in? There is always someone that judgement need to be questioned. Especially if you want to play a game, or have a job.

Now you're starting to ramble. You asked if I treated my boss the same as the people I work with. The honest answer was yes. Not sure what "cursing them out about their decisions" has to do with anything. As I said before, I treat everyone with respect so I wouldn't ever curse anyone out. Not even you.

Z

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Jeff

At 43, it's Mr. Coach, sir, to you.

[Brad]

Rtu -- I have to say that I am in 100% agreement with you.

Sportsmanship at all levels is a travesty. You are right on target about (some) high school athletes that are simply punks -- no two ways about it.

As I'm sure you and others do, I show respect to players when they show respect to me. If they respectfully ask a question, they get a respectful response. If they act like an idiot, they receive the appropriate penalty.

Ever get pulled over for a traffic violation? It's a helluva lot easier to get out of the ticket by showing a little respect versus having a chip on your shoulder.

You might be surprised how often a "Yes sir", "No sir", and "You are correct sir" can get you out of a ticket.

It also works elsewhere.

[112448]

I think Rut is correct in his assertation that the level of sportsmanship has decreased in the world, BUT I also think that officials walking around, acting like the world OWES them respect just because they have the whistle is a HUGE part of the problem.

Do bad cops deserve to be respected? What about business leaders who shread documents and lie to shareholders? What about coaches who "look the other way" when one of their players has been arrested for drunk driving? What about the parent who lets his/her kid walk all over them? Are we to respect all those people just because they are Older, Successful, and in positions of authority? Heck no.

I can't remember who, but someone in an earlier post to this thread hit the nail right on the head.

You have to GIVE respect in order to get respect. If the players sense that you are arrogant and not friendly and not approachable in your pregame, how in the world can you expect them to RESPECT you. There's a lot to be said for showing respect to everyone in the world. Whether they call you Mr. Rutledge or Mr. Ref or Sir or if they can sense you're approachable and feel like they can ask you a question, but they come up to you and say "Hey ref i have a question for you", it doesn't matter because THEY ARE SHOWING YOU RESPECT by approaching you because they know you'll be responsive.

If on the other hand, they sense you're stand-offish, then how do you think they're going to act towards you?

JRut - i usually agree with your officiating philosophies and your rule interpretations, but by you acting like players owe you respect just b/c you're the boss man you are making it harder for everyone else who tries to utilize the "good eggs" to help keep the "bad apples" from ruining the entire game.

Off my soap box,
Jake

[Brad]

You have to GIVE respect in order to get respect.

That's exactly right and exactly what I said.

However, don't turn it around and say that if we expect respect from players we have to show it to them first — that's not how it works.

Respect is earned -- if a player hasn't done anything to earn my respect, then he doesn't have it. That is the point.

If the players sense that you are arrogant and not friendly and not approachable in your pregame, how in the world can you expect them to RESPECT you.

This is besides the point. When we are dealing with high school (and lower level) students, why in the world should we consider their perspective? (That is, what they "sense") Teenagers do well enough to sense what is going on with themselves than to have an opinion on me.

Besides that, if they do sense that I am being arrogant, etc., does that give them the right to be disrespectful? No. THEY need to continue to show respect regardless of whether or not they like our calls or anything else going on in the game.

JRut - i usually agree with your officiating philosophies and your rule interpretations, but by you acting like players owe you respect just b/c you're the boss man you are making it harder for everyone else who tries to utilize the "good eggs" to help keep the "bad apples" from ruining the entire game.

I'm going to come to Rut's defense here because I think that (what you just wrote) is plain wrong.

How can people read into Rut's original posting that he is trying to be arrogant and disrespectful and acting like a big shot?!? He was trying to take care of a problem player without issuing a technical foul and was met with the response (from an assistant coach, no less) that he should show the player respect, too.

What a bunch of crap.

The coach needs to handle HIS player and not worry about what Rut is doing (if I had my guess, nothing other than officiating the game).

If Rut was trying to act like a big shot he would have just tossed the kid or at least given him a technical.

Are officials supposed to be gutless and pansies?!? I don't think so...

There are authority figures in life -- cops, your boss, your parents, etc. Officials also fall into those categories. You should give those people respect whether you think that they deserve it or not -- or you will have to deal with the consequences. (Imagine not showing respect to your boss and the impact that would have on your job, for example)

We can't improve sportsmanship if we think that an adult official needs to show respect to a 16 year old player before that player should act correctly.

[BktBallRef]

Now Brad, I hate to have to report you to the moderator!

Actually, I'm glad to see such a spirited reply from you!

[Oz Referee]

Brad,

I basically agree with what you have said - that you have to give respect to receive it.

But I feel that everybody starts off with the smae ammount of respect from me. I respect anyone I meet until they do something to change my opinion (either positively or negatively).

The concept that you start off not respecting anyone, until they do something to earn your respect is flawed. This (to me) is the same as the idea that you have to have experience to get a job - if every employer felt that way, then no-one would have jobs.
If you refuse to respect someone until they do something to earn their respect, and the other person feels the same way, then no-one will respect anyone.

As people in positions of authority, I feel it is up to us to set the example. I will deal with everyone I meet respectfully and in the same maner regardless of age/race/gender/social status or job, until they do something to change my opinion of the level of respect they deserve.

But hey, that's just MHO.

[Brad]

I don't disagree with anything that you've said except that I don't think that a player's respect for us as officials should be dependent on their perception of us (they think that we're standoffish, etc.) -- their coaches should teach them to respect officials. But many don't, which is a huge source of our problems.

And BktBallRef, if I get out of line, just let me know

[JRutledge]

Showing disrespect to a person that I do not know to me would be calling someone out of their name, sterotyping them without knowing anything about them. This was not the case.

For those that think I have a chip on my shoulder about this. This is why it came to this conversation.

I called a lane violation on this kid in the first quarter. It was so obvious, he was the only person in the lane and no one else moved until the ball hit the rim. Then after two of my partners called a "carry" on him, well I called one on him last. He did a jump hesitation move that the NF shows is illegal on their rules tape. He did the same thing and complained immediately about the call.

I will make it clear that I am an African-American official and this kid was African-American or Black depending on your political correctness. What I have found when I officiate Black kids or have Black coaches (and this coach was not Black BTW) tend to see so many white officials or do not see many Black officials, that they assume that for some reason they can approach me or say what they want. It usually means that the "Black" teams treat me much worse than the all white teams ever have. I guess they think that the white officials are usually screwing them and when they see me it will be different. But I do not care about any of that during the game and call what I see and what happens. For some reason kids of other backgrounds do not even try to approach me in that fashion. I really do not know why, it just seems that way. And I was the youngest official on the court too, and I probably look much more like their peer than anyone else on the court, this kid made several comments to me. He did not do this to the other officials (that I could see), but happen to do it with me. I have no explaination for this other than what I said.

Well, I had an out of bounds after he again said something about a call I made. If I remember it correctly, he wanted me to call a foul on a shot that basically he took in a crowd. Well what usually happens and the ball got knocked out of his hands but he got the ball back. He was the player that was taking the ball out so I decided to talk to him quietly and not make a scene or show this player up. This kid is a very good athlete and has many college offers on the table. But this kid is so good that he wants to play baseball wherever he goes to college. And I know this so I want to give him the opportunity to change his behavior without me just blowing my whistle. Well I failed miserably and he did not take what I said to him very well. And all that I told him that I have told other players that are getting out of hand, that he needs to stop complaining about every single call. That is going to cause him more problems if his behavior continues and that he needs to show more "respect." Well he claimed that I was not showing him any respect even though I did not raise my voice and not a sole could hear a word I said but him because he was a little taller than me and I was basically right by his ear.

Well, after that did not work I addressed the issue with the coach. We did not have another problem the rest of the game after my comments to the coach. But I will also say that I feel that the kids tried to mirror the attitude of their coach. The coach complained about every single call, to the point that one of my partners had to basically tell him, "enough is enough" in an unrelated conversation with the coach. I do not know if my conversation or my partner's conversation did the trick, but either way it worked and the kids and the coach shut up.

I definitely did not read the situation the way I should have. And that I probably should have just addressed the coach in this situation. But I do not see what a "chip" had to do with this. But then again, some here are truly twisted in their thinking about everything I say. But to each his own.

Peace

[Brad]

I feel that the kids tried to mirror the attitude of their coach

I think that I will paraphrase this (if you don't mind)

Players mirror the attitude of their coach

and put it on a plaque and sell it!!!

This is an undeniable truth about sports. The worse the coach is, the worse the players and fans will be. Period.