Whacking Coaches

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe that's what they're trying to say - we need to make it a priority. It hasn't been for a long time, and the YouTube video and my IL game example (as well as countless others) are the result. At the minimum the result doesn't look very good, and at the worst, the coach is certainly gaining an unfair advantage.

And there are many that would disagree with what you are saying. I could give a damn where a coach stands and if they are a toe over the line or not. It does nothing to affect how I call the game and it does not give them an advantage unless they are directly interfering with play.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Of couse the officials do what the supervisor tells them; that's not a secret. I have had supervisors tell me to do little things that are contrary to specific rules and mechanics. What we don't know is whether the officials did what the supervisor told them in either case. In the IL game, I do not remember seeing any of the crew before, so they were probably new on staff since this was an "unimportant" non-conference game. We don't know if they were given a "good job" for not interrupting the game, or if they were ripped a new one for letting such an obvious thing go. The same with the officials in the video - did they get reprimanded for letting the coach wander like she did? We just don't know.

Well that is the reality. And until the NCAA starts hiring officials from all level of basketball, then you are going to get philosophies from one conference to another. This is not just a basketball thing. The SEC has been known as the laughing stock of college football because they advocated a mechanic that was outdated and not accepted by anyone. All the NCAA could do is who they gave assignments to for bowl games.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

As far as post-season assignments, you may get recommended if you follow what the supervisor tells you, but that doesn't mean the NCAA will use you if you have been told not to follow a specific POI. Realistically, if an official has not paid attention to bench decorum all season, how far do you think they will advance if they're not used to paying attention?

The NCAA only picks the recommended officials from the conferences. The NCAA does not pick officials the conferences do not recommend based on my understanding.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Fwiw, I may not necessarily like having to pay more attention to the bench and the coaches, but that's what it looks like it's coming to. We, as officials, haven't been enforcing it well enough, so now it looks like the pendulum has swung over to no tolerance. It will be interesting to see how much they stick to it over the course of the season.

No tolerance whether it is a basketball rule or a school policy are stupid. There has to be some judgment and common sense used. And until you see it enforced as you think it will be, and then I will stand by my statement. I bet in the end the enforcement will not come near where you are suggesting it will be.

I seriously doubt the NCAA would just put someone in the tournament that was not recommended by anyone. I would not expect someone to work a post-season HS tournament that did not get one rating or if that person did not receive any recommendations either.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

This is not news. I posted an email from my D3 "commissioner", for lack of a better word, a couple weeks ago that said almost the exact same thing as btaylor's original post in this thread. The email I got said in part:

"I wanted to convey a message from the NCAA Basketball Committee regarding the new point of emphasis as it relates to bench decorum and the coach's box.To be specific, the interpretation of this new point of emphasis simply states that if the coach is out of the coach's box - for whatever reason - (other than when he's permitted to be), a technical foul should be assessed."

There are going to be a ton of T's early in the season, IMO.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA only picks the recommended officials from the conferences. The NCAA does not pick officials the conferences do not recommend based on my understanding.

You were missing my point - let's say a conference decides they don't like the "no tolerance" bench decorum rules that the NCAA is advocating. The officials might follow what the conference wants, and get recommended by the conference to the NCAA for post-season, but the NCAA might not actually use the officials from that conference. Or, even if the NCAA does use those officials, how far would they advance if they haven't been used to watching the bench all season?

I agree with you in the fact it will be very interesting to see how it plays out over the season. But it's not much different in real life - if someone takes advantage or extra liberties with a rule, usually the rule is clamped down extra hard before it's loosened again.

[Adam]

That's how I do it with my kids anyway.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You were missing my point - let's say a conference decides they don't like the "no tolerance" bench decorum rules that the NCAA is advocating. The officials might follow what the conference wants, and get recommended by the conference to the NCAA for post-season, but the NCAA might not actually use the officials from that conference. Or, even if the NCAA does use those officials, how far would they advance if they haven't been used to watching the bench all season?

I agree with you in the fact it will be very interesting to see how it plays out over the season. But it's not much different in real life - if someone takes advantage or extra liberties with a rule, usually the rule is clamped down extra hard before it's loosened again.

Here is another reality you might not be aware of. Someone that works in a conference and that is recommended to work in the NCAA Tournament is likely working other conferences. Since you and I are in Big Ten Country and you referenced a Big Ten game. You do not work in the Big Ten without working other conferences in the region. So if you live in the Midwest and you work the Big Ten, you likely work other smaller conferences like the Horizon, MAC, Mid-Con (now Summit), Missouri Valley or maybe the Ohio Valley and Atlantic 10. And if you look at the so-called "Big dogs" of college officiating, they are hiring officials that work multiple conferences and the same people that are hired in the Big Ten, also are recommended in other conferences as well. And on the Women's side of the isle, there are assignors that assign 6-10 Division 1 conferences. So a supervisor has even more say than at the Men's side. So there might be some lip service to what is in the POE, but it does not mean there are going to be 100 more Ts because of it either.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

It is in my conferences. If my CC says "you better not do it, let me handle it" (like I've been told before) then I will adhere to that.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.

Well I was sitting next to some "big dogs" when it was said and they had a look on there face that was like, "Dang we're going to have to actually do this."

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

It is in my conferences. If my CC says "you better not do it, let me handle it" (like I've been told before) then I will adhere to that.



Well I was sitting next to some "big dogs" when it was said and they had a look on there face that was like, "Dang we're going to have to actually do this."

You're too focussed on big dogs and little sh1ts.

Just do your job, you'll be OK (even in your conferences).

[Scrapper1]

Here's the latest email I received from my D3 commissioner:

NCAA/10/01/07/MAP
DIVISION I MEN'S AND WOMEN'S BASKETBALL
BENCH DECORUM: STRENGTHENED ENFORCEMENT

For the 2007-08 season, every stakeholder group involved in NCAA Basketball, including the
WBCA and NABC, has made a unified commitment to see substantial improvement in the
enforcement of appropriate bench decorum. This was unanimously affirmed by the Collegiate
Commissioners Association October 1, 2007.
Throughout the season, the following rules and guidelines shall direct officials and coaches in
the administration of bench decorum:
1. Head coaches and other bench personnel who engage in the following unsporting actions, in
or out of the coaching box, are in violation of the bench decorum rules and should be
assessed, without warning, a direct technical foul (Excerpted from the NCAA Men's and
Women's Basketball Rule Book: Rule 10-4.1, Appendix III; Officiating Guidelines):
a. Disrespectfully addressing an official (i.e., questioning the integrity of an official,
voicing displeasure about officiating through continuous verbal remarks).
b. Attempting to influence an official ?s decision (i.e.,physically charging toward an
official).
c. Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene (i.e., directed
toward an official, opponents or anyone).
d. Taunting or baiting an opponent.
e. Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures (i.e.,
excessively demonstrating officiating signals [e.g., traveling, holding, verticality]
or excessively demonstrating by use of gestures or actions that indicate
displeasure with officiating).
f. Inciting undesirable crowd reactions.
g. Entering the playing court unless done with permission of an official to attend to
an injured player.

2. The rule states that the head coach shall remain in his/her team's coaching box.A coach is
outside the coaching box when he or she is clearly and completely outside of the prescribed
coaching box.

3. By rule, a coach may legally leave the coaching box during play only under the following
conditions: to prevent a fight from escalating, to point out a scoring or timing mistake, to
request a timeout to ascertain whether a correctable error needs to be rectified or to seek
information from the official scorer or timer during a timeout or an intermission.
However, if a head coach is found to be outside the coaching box appropriately
communicating with officials, coaching his/her team, engaged in miscellaneous legal activity
or minor conduct infractions a single warning shall be issued. Subsequent infractions will
result in a direct technical foul.

4. The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behavior of all bench personnel.
NOTE: Game officials will be responsible to enforce the aforementioned guidelines throughout
the season; consistency in doing so will affect conference and/or NCAA championship selection and assignments.

Interestingly, the first email I got says to whack for any reason that's not specifically allowed in the rulebook. But #3 above says to give a single warning before giving the T. That kind of waters it down. We'll have to wait and see what really happens, I guess.

[Nate1224hoops]

It's actually really simple. If the NCAA or NHSL want to slow the game down, turn the focus of the game away from the players and the game and put it on the officials then this will happen. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that this will happen. That's just my opinion. Why? In high school everytime a coach is ejected the school is fined $300. The high school leagues will be flooded with appeals from schools. If it does happen, it won't last long. It's bullsheeet. Officials don't want to watch the coach all the time and what official is going to "T" a coach after his best player misses a wide open 3 to win the game with 5 sec. remaining and the coach is standing 3 feet outside the box praying the shot goes in. GET REAL.

If they really wanted coaches in the box "24-7,"....here the little secret everyone needs to hear....THEY WOULD REQUIRE THEM TO SIT AT ALL TIMES...this would take away the need for a damn box. Some leagues do this already. But most of those are older and at some point going to change. The day they start calling a "T" for every coaches big toe that crosses the line, will be the day that officials start receiving bonuses for calling "T's." LOL

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

will be the day that officials start receiving bonuses for calling "T's." LOL

If I received a bonus for every T I ever called, Bill Gates would be at my house begging for spare change.

[FrankHtown]

All I ask is that someone post the YouTube of Coach K getting a T for leaving the coaching box near the end of a close Duke/NC game.

[tomegun]

I think both sides of this argument are correct.
Btaylor is simply stating what many supervisors are saying. Whether the "big dogs" follow it is another issue. An official who works for one of the D1 supervisors called off a number of officials ("big dogs") who he already knows will not enforce this. This probably will not happen as it is written, but that is just the way things are. I don't always put too much faith in "big dogs" because they aren't all necessarily the best officials. Sure, supervisors and coaches might be happy/comfortable with them, but that doesn't mean they are calling correctly, it just means they aren't making waves - two different ways to look at it. The NCAA tape is proof of this. Where do they get examples of what NOT to do? The NCAA tournament (to a large extent at least).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

All I ask is that someone post the YouTube of Coach K getting a T for leaving the coaching box near the end of a close Duke/NC game.

According to what's posted above, Coach K wouldn't make it through the first half without picking up 2 on point 1c (vulgar language).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

All I ask is that someone post the YouTube of Coach K getting a T for leaving the coaching box near the end of a close Duke/NC game.

Can't find one. There is one of Coach K getting a T during a Duke/GT game, though.