Whacking Coaches

[btaylor64]

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it. If the team is standing up, you whack them too unless it is after a great play, then you give them reasonable time to sit back down.

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it. If the team is standing up, you whack them too unless it is after a great play, then you give them reasonable time to sit back down.

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will.

I bet you won't stick around long in your conferences if you keep this attitude.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it.

This seems pretty draconian. Have there been problems in the past with coaches not listening to warnings, or perhaps refs being sloppy about enforcing the rule?

It would seem to me that one (and one only) warning first would not be out of line and might accomplish the desired compliance.

[JRutledge]

I agree with you Mark. But this is also why I took the position on your previous post that showed the YouTube video. I think that officials need to be careful if all we do is give a T for every violation of the box. The only way this would work is if every official gets on board and the league supports all Ts with that procedure. The problem is most leagues or conferences do not support their officials for this kind of call which brings the reluctance and often in consistency in when this is called.

Peace

[TimTaylor]

I agree with Dan & Mark. You have to consider the circumstances. If the coaching box violation is an incidental thing, a simple "Coach, don't forget the box, we've been instructed to strictly enforce it." will usually rectify the issue. If it's a clearly deliberate act, go ahead & issue the T.

With the bench it's a similar issue. If the team on the bench stands other than when allowed by rule, "Coach, you need to get your bench under control" should precede the T, unless the act is blatant enough to warrant immediate penalty.

That said, don't keep warning. Warn once, then penalize at next occurence.

[M&M Guy]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

[Back In The Saddle]

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.
2) Officials being fired for not enforcing it.
3) Coaches being told by the conference to STFU and get back in the box when they complain about getting whacked.

Okay, so...that's three.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far.

Actually my comment had more to do with this

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation.

Peace

But isn't not watching coaches the problem? Isn't that why the various committees have been using bench decorum as a POI, because officials need to be watching the benches more often? Sure, we shouldn't call something we don't see, but maybe we should be seeing more; after all, the bench is under our jurisdiction.

There was an Illinois game I attended last year (non-Big 10) where the visiting coach squatted down and watched play from the corner inbounds. (Picture 2-3 feet in from the sideline, and 2-3 feet in off the baseline.) This in the first half, so this was in front of their bench, while IL was on offense. At one point, an IL player had to side-step the coach, but nothing obvious was said to the coach. Hey, he wasn't screaming at the refs, so why should they concern themselves, right?

Also, your argument about a T being very different than a violation isn't as true in college. With a violation, you lose a possession. With a T, (and missed FT's), you've lost nothing because of POI.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

I agree. And I also agree it will be interesting to see how this is handled by "the big dogs" with the big name coaches. I would think at that level, with supervisors backing the officials, it won't take long for the coaches to comply.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But isn't not watching coaches the problem? Isn't that why the various committees have been using bench decorum as a POI, because officials need to be watching the benches more often? Sure, we shouldn't call something we don't see, but maybe we should be seeing more; after all, the bench is under our jurisdiction.

Watching coaches are not the priority. I realize that in the perfect world that many would like to live, we can see and call everything that takes place. I personally would love to have eyes in the back of my head or on the sides of my head. Most likely most officials are only going to see coaches during times when the ball is not live and when the ball is next to the bench.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

There was an Illinois game I attended last year (non-Big 10) where the visiting coach squatted down and watched play from the corner inbounds. (Picture 2-3 feet in from the sideline, and 2-3 feet in off the baseline.) This in the first half, so this was in front of their bench, while IL was on offense. At one point, an IL player had to side-step the coach, but nothing obvious was said to the coach. Hey, he wasn't screaming at the refs, so why should they concern themselves, right?

Let me let you guys in on a little secret. I know this is going to shock many of you. The reality is that officials that work D1 ball, do not listen to the NCAA, they listen to their supervisors. If the supervisor they work for wants something done, that is what they do. You cannot work the NCAA Tournament without the conferences making recommendations to the NCAA. You cannot work D1 ball if the supervisor of a conference does not hire you. And I can tell you from knowledge that what happens in one conference might not happen in another conference. All you have to do is have a talk with an official that works multiple conferences and supervisors and that will become very obvious to anyone.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Also, your argument about a T being very different than a violation isn't as true in college. With a violation, you lose a possession. With a T, (and missed FT's), you've lost nothing because of POI.

I am going to have to disagree. College supervisors are much more explicit in their opinions on how things are called and what is expected. Most HS conferences do not have a meeting with all the conference staff or have camps only for those that work in that conference. I can tell you as someone that has worked college ball that who you work for makes a big difference in what you might call in their conference. Usually those things are not very big, but it can affect things like where you stand and how you enforce certain rules.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When I want a coach whacked, I just give the contract to my cousin Guido.

MTD, Sr.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

When I want a coach whacked, I just give the contract to my cousin Guido.

MTD, Sr.

Sounds like the NCAA will be sending some business his way.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Watching coaches are not the priority. I realize that in the perfect world that many would like to live, we can see and call everything that takes place. I personally would love to have eyes in the back of my head or on the sides of my head. Most likely most officials are only going to see coaches during times when the ball is not live and when the ball is next to the bench.

Maybe that's what they're trying to say - we need to make it a priority. It hasn't been for a long time, and the YouTube video and my IL game example (as well as countless others) are the result. At the minimum the result doesn't look very good, and at the worst, the coach is certainly gaining an unfair advantage.

Of couse the officials do what the supervisor tells them; that's not a secret. I have had supervisors tell me to do little things that are contrary to specific rules and mechanics. What we don't know is whether the officials did what the supervisor told them in either case. In the IL game, I do not remember seeing any of the crew before, so they were probably new on staff since this was an "unimportant" non-conference game. We don't know if they were given a "good job" for not interrupting the game, or if they were ripped a new one for letting such an obvious thing go. The same with the officials in the video - did they get reprimanded for letting the coach wander like she did? We just don't know.

As far as post-season assignments, you may get recommended if you follow what the supervisor tells you, but that doesn't mean the NCAA will use you if you have been told not to follow a specific POI. Realistically, if an official has not paid attention to bench decorum all season, how far do you think they will advance if they're not used to paying attention?

Fwiw, I may not necessarily like having to pay more attention to the bench and the coaches, but that's what it looks like it's coming to. We, as officials, haven't been enforcing it well enough, so now it looks like the pendulum has swung over to no tolerance. It will be interesting to see how much they stick to it over the course of the season.