Whacking Coaches

[btaylor64]

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it. If the team is standing up, you whack them too unless it is after a great play, then you give them reasonable time to sit back down.

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it. If the team is standing up, you whack them too unless it is after a great play, then you give them reasonable time to sit back down.

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will.

I bet you won't stick around long in your conferences if you keep this attitude.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it.

This seems pretty draconian. Have there been problems in the past with coaches not listening to warnings, or perhaps refs being sloppy about enforcing the rule?

It would seem to me that one (and one only) warning first would not be out of line and might accomplish the desired compliance.

[JRutledge]

I agree with you Mark. But this is also why I took the position on your previous post that showed the YouTube video. I think that officials need to be careful if all we do is give a T for every violation of the box. The only way this would work is if every official gets on board and the league supports all Ts with that procedure. The problem is most leagues or conferences do not support their officials for this kind of call which brings the reluctance and often in consistency in when this is called.

Peace

[TimTaylor]

I agree with Dan & Mark. You have to consider the circumstances. If the coaching box violation is an incidental thing, a simple "Coach, don't forget the box, we've been instructed to strictly enforce it." will usually rectify the issue. If it's a clearly deliberate act, go ahead & issue the T.

With the bench it's a similar issue. If the team on the bench stands other than when allowed by rule, "Coach, you need to get your bench under control" should precede the T, unless the act is blatant enough to warrant immediate penalty.

That said, don't keep warning. Warn once, then penalize at next occurence.

[M&M Guy]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

[Back In The Saddle]

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.
2) Officials being fired for not enforcing it.
3) Coaches being told by the conference to STFU and get back in the box when they complain about getting whacked.

Okay, so...that's three.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation.

Peace

But isn't not watching coaches the problem? Isn't that why the various committees have been using bench decorum as a POI, because officials need to be watching the benches more often? Sure, we shouldn't call something we don't see, but maybe we should be seeing more; after all, the bench is under our jurisdiction.

There was an Illinois game I attended last year (non-Big 10) where the visiting coach squatted down and watched play from the corner inbounds. (Picture 2-3 feet in from the sideline, and 2-3 feet in off the baseline.) This in the first half, so this was in front of their bench, while IL was on offense. At one point, an IL player had to side-step the coach, but nothing obvious was said to the coach. Hey, he wasn't screaming at the refs, so why should they concern themselves, right?

Also, your argument about a T being very different than a violation isn't as true in college. With a violation, you lose a possession. With a T, (and missed FT's), you've lost nothing because of POI.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far.

Actually my comment had more to do with this

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

I agree. And I also agree it will be interesting to see how this is handled by "the big dogs" with the big name coaches. I would think at that level, with supervisors backing the officials, it won't take long for the coaches to comply.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

It is in my conferences. If my CC says "you better not do it, let me handle it" (like I've been told before) then I will adhere to that.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.

Well I was sitting next to some "big dogs" when it was said and they had a look on there face that was like, "Dang we're going to have to actually do this."

[Scrapper1]

This is not news. I posted an email from my D3 "commissioner", for lack of a better word, a couple weeks ago that said almost the exact same thing as btaylor's original post in this thread. The email I got said in part:

"I wanted to convey a message from the NCAA Basketball Committee regarding the new point of emphasis as it relates to bench decorum and the coach's box.To be specific, the interpretation of this new point of emphasis simply states that if the coach is out of the coach's box - for whatever reason - (other than when he's permitted to be), a technical foul should be assessed."

There are going to be a ton of T's early in the season, IMO.

[Scrapper1]

Here's the latest email I received from my D3 commissioner:

NCAA/10/01/07/MAP
DIVISION I MEN'S AND WOMEN'S BASKETBALL
BENCH DECORUM: STRENGTHENED ENFORCEMENT

For the 2007-08 season, every stakeholder group involved in NCAA Basketball, including the
WBCA and NABC, has made a unified commitment to see substantial improvement in the
enforcement of appropriate bench decorum. This was unanimously affirmed by the Collegiate
Commissioners Association October 1, 2007.
Throughout the season, the following rules and guidelines shall direct officials and coaches in
the administration of bench decorum:
1. Head coaches and other bench personnel who engage in the following unsporting actions, in
or out of the coaching box, are in violation of the bench decorum rules and should be
assessed, without warning, a direct technical foul (Excerpted from the NCAA Men's and
Women's Basketball Rule Book: Rule 10-4.1, Appendix III; Officiating Guidelines):
a. Disrespectfully addressing an official (i.e., questioning the integrity of an official,
voicing displeasure about officiating through continuous verbal remarks).
b. Attempting to influence an official ?s decision (i.e.,physically charging toward an
official).
c. Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene (i.e., directed
toward an official, opponents or anyone).
d. Taunting or baiting an opponent.
e. Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures (i.e.,
excessively demonstrating officiating signals [e.g., traveling, holding, verticality]
or excessively demonstrating by use of gestures or actions that indicate
displeasure with officiating).
f. Inciting undesirable crowd reactions.
g. Entering the playing court unless done with permission of an official to attend to
an injured player.

2. The rule states that the head coach shall remain in his/her team's coaching box.A coach is
outside the coaching box when he or she is clearly and completely outside of the prescribed
coaching box.

3. By rule, a coach may legally leave the coaching box during play only under the following
conditions: to prevent a fight from escalating, to point out a scoring or timing mistake, to
request a timeout to ascertain whether a correctable error needs to be rectified or to seek
information from the official scorer or timer during a timeout or an intermission.
However, if a head coach is found to be outside the coaching box appropriately
communicating with officials, coaching his/her team, engaged in miscellaneous legal activity
or minor conduct infractions a single warning shall be issued. Subsequent infractions will
result in a direct technical foul.

4. The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behavior of all bench personnel.
NOTE: Game officials will be responsible to enforce the aforementioned guidelines throughout
the season; consistency in doing so will affect conference and/or NCAA championship selection and assignments.

Interestingly, the first email I got says to whack for any reason that's not specifically allowed in the rulebook. But #3 above says to give a single warning before giving the T. That kind of waters it down. We'll have to wait and see what really happens, I guess.

[tomegun]

I think both sides of this argument are correct.
Btaylor is simply stating what many supervisors are saying. Whether the "big dogs" follow it is another issue. An official who works for one of the D1 supervisors called off a number of officials ("big dogs") who he already knows will not enforce this. This probably will not happen as it is written, but that is just the way things are. I don't always put too much faith in "big dogs" because they aren't all necessarily the best officials. Sure, supervisors and coaches might be happy/comfortable with them, but that doesn't mean they are calling correctly, it just means they aren't making waves - two different ways to look at it. The NCAA tape is proof of this. Where do they get examples of what NOT to do? The NCAA tournament (to a large extent at least).