Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[JoeTheRef]

I must be missing something, or not reading everything. The majority of us would put the time back on the clock and the ball back in play at the endline. To put the ball in play where the ball was, in my opinion wouldn't work for me, simply because the throw-in never ended, so how can I change the location of the throw-in? But to try and justify by any rule to give the ball back to Team B in this situation is absurd.

In the caseplay 7.5.4 sit. D.. Official inadverntely blows the whistle while Team A's successful try is airborne.. Ruling. Even though by rule there is no team control during this dead ball period, the ball would be given to TEam B for a throw-in anywhere along the endline. Team B would have clearly received the ball had the official not acidentally sound his/her whistle.

Yes, I know that caseplay is talking about an IW, but the intent of the ruling by the FED in that situation could and should be applied in this situation. So in the OP, Team A would not or could not lose possession because of the idiot timekeeper starting the clock when it shouldn't have started, period.

[26 Year Gap]

I heard back from my interpreter and will post his response here. Some will agree and some will disagree. And, no, firing the clock operator on the spot was not part of the response.

interesting play and connects with the point I was attempting to make at the mid-season meetings about being aware of the clock in crucial situations...there are many different situations that occur and not a lot of guidance in the rule book, which then allows Rule 2-3 (Referee's Authority) to take over...that rule along with experience, rule knowledge and common sense will hopefully provide for a ruling that is FAIR...I would say in the situation presented, that the ball should be inbounded at the spot closest to where the ball was when the whistle was blown i.e. near the division line, and that the clock should be reset to the original time i.e. 32.3(I think it was)...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I heard back from my interpreter and will post his response here. Some will agree and some will disagree. And, no, firing the clock operator on the spot was not part of the response.

interesting play and connects with the point I was attempting to make at the mid-season meetings about being aware of the clock in crucial situations...there are many different situations that occur and not a lot of guidance in the rule book, which then allows Rule 2-3 (Referee's Authority) to take over...that rule along with experience, rule knowledge and common sense will hopefully provide for a ruling that is FAIR...I would say in the situation presented, that the ball should be inbounded at the spot closest to where the ball was when the whistle was blown i.e. near the division line, and that the clock should be reset to the original time i.e. 32.3(I think it was)...

So you ask your rules interpreter for help and rather than do some bookwork and attempt cite an applicable rule for you, he tells you to fall back on 2-3 and advance the ball for the throwing team.

I'm sure that JR will have some choice words for him about that decision.

[OHBBREF]

With Due respect to rules interpreters and those who have posted thus far IMHO
This is NOT an INADVERTANT WHISTLE it IS a TIMERS MISTAKE that is why you are blowing the whistle so you can find what to do, But because there is a rule involved you can not no mater how badly covered use elasticity to fill in the gaps or your feelings or personal opinions.
I think this is how you have to go about resetting play.
1)
now if the ball was not touched
the clock is restet to 32.2
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the ball was touched and the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
no time ran off the clock since it was not touched

2)
if the ball was touched by the inbounding team
The clock is reset at something less than 32.2 (Ref knowledge)
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
and time came off the clock because it was touched

3)
if the ball was intercepted by the defending team then the whisle blows
The clock is reset at something less than 32.2
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
and time came off the clock because it was touched.

and in these resets there are no advantages gained because things are at best POI when the whistle blew.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

With Due respect to rules interpreters and those who have posted thus far IMHO
This is NOT an INADVERTANT WHISTLE it IS a TIMERS MISTAKE that is why you are blowing the whistle ...


...things are at best POI when the whistle blew.

Please show me where in the rules it says to go to the POI when the whistle is sounded for a timer's mistake. Sorry, but that is not one of the reasons listed in 4-36-1. Care to try again?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Please show me where in the rules it says to go to the POI when the whistle is sounded for a timer's mistake. Sorry, but that is not one of the reasons listed in 4-36-1. Care to try again?

I didn't say the rule said return to POI - It doesn't but I think you are wrong what you are doing is is ignoring why you have blown the whistle -
you blew the whistle to correct a timers mistake under
under scoring and timing regulations - section 10 - article 2 (I believe do not have NFHS book with me)you stop the clock and then either reset or take time off the clock and give the ball back where it was.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I didn't say the rule said return to POI -

Really? You wrote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

...and in these resets there are no advantages gained because things are at best POI when the whistle blew.

So what are you saying is the proper way to restart the game?

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

It doesn't but I think you are wrong what you are doing is is ignoring why you have blown the whistle -
you blew the whistle to correct a timers mistake under
under scoring and timing regulations - section 10 - article 2 (I believe do not have NFHS book with me)you stop the clock and then either reset or take time off the clock and give the ball back where it was.

I have never said that this was an accidental whistle. In fact, I have gone out of my way to say that it was not. You need to go back and reread my posts.
Now what I put in red certainly seems like you are applying the POI rule. What rule permits you to "give the ball back where it was"? You say to do this, but you never say why or what rules support you would have for doing so.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I think this is how you have to go about resetting play.
1)
now if the ball was not touched
the clock is restet to 32.2
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the ball was touched and the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
no time ran off the clock since it was not touched

Here you say to reset the clock because no one touched the ball, and that the ball is where it was when the whistle blew, but you never say what to do. Do you want to give someone a throw-in? Do you want to use the AP arrow? And where to do want to inbound the ball from--near the division line or back on the end line? You never specify. That is very confusing.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

1) now if the ball was not touched the clock is restet to 32.2 and the ball is inbounded where it was when the ball was touched and the whistle blew.

Was the ball touched in your example? Are you referencing the endline throw-in as where the ball was touched?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So you ask your rules interpreter for help and rather than do some bookwork and attempt cite an applicable rule for you, he tells you to fall back on 2-3 and advance the ball for the throwing team.

I'm sure that JR will have some choice words for him about that decision.

What did I post, Nevada? I said that I would copy and paste the original post and send it to my interpreter who is on the Fed rules committee. That is exactly what I did. Several on here who are far more knowledgeble than me had disagreements on what the solution was and many cited rules and cases or stated there was not enough clarity. But, no. Asking someone with more knowledge than me is a dumb thing to do according to Nevada. Much better to figure out something on my own and assume it is correct. I guess I should have just asked you since you are smarter than everyone else combined on this board.

[Camron Rust]

Relavant case that no one has mentioned....(I don't have my books with me so someone else can look up the reference).

Violation by B. Ref mistakenly gives ball to B for the throwin. The untouched ball is rolling down the court when the ref realizes the error and blows the whistle. The case play says that until the throwin is touched, the mistake can be corrected....that A will get the ball.

WHY? There is rules justification for it and the same rule applies here.

Because the ball became dead and a timeout, goal or infraction of the rules was involved (it was what dictated that there would be a throwin to begin with). And until that throwin ends or there is a violation or foul, team A has a throwin due them. A will continue to be due that throwin...and at the original spot since it is still part of the penalty for the infraction that had occured or part of the result of a team scoring a goal.

So, when the ball becomes dead as it is rolling down the floor on the throwin, the throwing team will get the ball at the original spot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

What did I post, Nevada? I said that I would copy and paste the original post and send it to my interpreter who is on the Fed rules committee. That is exactly what I did. Several on here who are far more knowledgeble than me had disagreements on what the solution was and many cited rules and cases or stated there was not enough clarity. But, no. Asking someone with more knowledge than me is a dumb thing to do according to Nevada. Much better to figure out something on my own and assume it is correct. I guess I should have just asked you since you are smarter than everyone else combined on this board.

My state rules guy is also on the NFHS rules committee just like yours. No big deal.
I never said that it was a poor idea for you to consult someone that you believe is more knowledgable for help. I did have an issue with this person that you went to not bothering to give you anything in the current rules that would cover the situation about which you inquired. Instead your rules person just said to use 2-3 and make up what to do. I don't believe that is helpful at all. You could have done that without consulting him. So my criticism was not of you, but of your state rules interpreter. If my interpreter were to write something to me that was as weak and unhelpful as yours did, I would criticize him too.

[RookieDude]

Late:

"Working" the night shift, again, and had some time to muddle through all this.

I actually changed my mind, as to how I would administer this sitch, as I was reading the different posts. No, Nevada, I am not giving the ball back to Team B.

Initially, I thought I would do as JR and others have suggested...simply put the correct time on the clock and start back at the endline.

But, as some posters have stated...and adding some of my own thoughts...

1) The ball was live as it was rolling
2) Team B chose to NOT play defense or press
3) The ball made it to a different place than where it started. (some player propelled it...the ball didn't roll on it's own)
4) If the timer had started the clock CORRECTLY, wouldn't the ball have been at the NEW SPOT (close to the division line) with the SAME time that should have been on the clock if it had not started incorrectly? (Sort of a TIME and DISTANCE thing...oh wait! a different thread)
5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

That's about all that you can do, Dude, when a play like this isn't definitively covered.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Late:

"Working" the night shift, again, and had some time to muddle through all this.

I actually changed my mind, as to how I would administer this sitch, as I was reading the different posts. No, Nevada, I am not giving the ball back to Team B.

Initially, I thought I would do as JR and others have suggested...simply put the correct time on the clock and start back at the endline.

But, as some posters have stated...and adding some of my own thoughts...

1) The ball was live as it was rolling
2) Team B chose to NOT play defense or press
3) The ball made it to a different place than where it started. (some player propelled it...the ball didn't roll on it's own)
4) If the timer had started the clock CORRECTLY, wouldn't the ball have been at the NEW SPOT (close to the division line) with the SAME time that should have been on the clock if it had not started incorrectly? (Sort of a TIME and DISTANCE thing...oh wait! a different thread)
5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

Here is why I disagree with that method....

Team A will get the ball near mid-court in a players hands with the clock stopped with an opportunity to throw the ball in a new direction with increased speed. That is an opportunity they don't have with the ball rolling down the court. Again, the difference is that, while the ball may be at the division line in both cases, team A gets the ball in a much better situation with a new throwin at mid-court with the clock stopped and no time removed.

Anytime the whistle is blown before the throwin is completed (and there is no violation or foul), the new throwin spot will be the old throwin spot.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I must be missing something, or not reading everything. The majority of us would put the time back on the clock and the ball back in play at the endline. To put the ball in play where the ball was, in my opinion wouldn't work for me, simply because the throw-in never ended, so how can I change the location of the throw-in? But to try and justify by any rule to give the ball back to Team B in this situation is absurd.

Yeah, most of us would kill the play, fix the clock & restart the throw-in. Simple enough, although it does get tricky if you kill the play after the touch but before team control.

Some of us would prefer to dream up alternate-universe interpretations and hand them down from the mountain top carved onto tablets. :shrug: