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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I disagree. When A3 catches the ball, there's TC and the ball in the FC. It's not during the jump ball anymore, so the exception doesn't apply. It's a violation.

(And, your other post -- A1 inbounds to A2 who tips the ball to airborne A3 who gathers in the FC and lands in the BC -- is also a violation.)
Bob, thanks for jumping in. Let me ask it this way;
A1 has the ball for a throwin. Passes the ball and it's tipped (doesn't matter by whom). B1 then jumps from his FC and catches the ball before landing in his BC. Would this be a violation?
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 06:51pm
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Okay, here's the applicable rule as it pertains to this play:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule Book
9-9-3...A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.
Again, the debate is whether the parenthetical comment is meant to be all-inclusive or merely provide examples for when this allowance applies.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Bob, thanks for jumping in. Let me ask it this way;
A1 has the ball for a throwin. Passes the ball and it's tipped (doesn't matter by whom). B1 then jumps from his FC and catches the ball before landing in his BC. Would this be a violation?
No violation. Since Team A had the ball for the throw-in, which ended on the tip, it is clear that B1 is a defensive player and thus his action is covered by 9-9-3.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
No violation. Since Team A had the ball for the throw-in, which ended on the tip, it is clear that B1 is a defensive player and thus his action is covered by 9-9-3.
How is it clear who is on offense or defense when there is no player or team control?

Rules citation?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
No violation. Since Team A had the ball for the throw-in, which ended on the tip, it is clear that B1 is a defensive player and thus his action is covered by 9-9-3.
Not a defensive player. There is no defensive player yet. But it is legal because it's a throw-in.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:40pm
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JR, the team defending the throw-in is clearly on defense.

SoCal, it is not during a throw-in. The ball was tipped and that ended the throw-in under NFHS rules.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
JR, the team defending the throw-in is clearly on defense.

SoCal, it is not during a throw-in. The ball was tipped and that ended the throw-in under NFHS rules.
You're right. I misread it. However, there is still no defense or offense as team control has yet to be established.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
JR, the team defending the throw-in is clearly on defense.
Clear to who?

Rules citation?
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 10:33pm
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My point exactly, JR.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 11:54pm
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Where does it say that team control is necessary for there to be a defensive team. To throw that ball back into JR's court, please cite a rule for me that says that.

I think that it is quite obvious that if one team is making a throw-in, the opponent is playing defense.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 12:46am
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If we're going to parse the wording of the rule to the point where we insist that the parenthetical list is all-inclusive, then "defense" needs to be defined as well. The only rule definition I can find is by defining it as the opposite of the team in control; which won't exist during a throwin.

Personally, I think the parenthetical list is meant as a few examples rather than a full and all-inclusive list of times when the allowance is in effect.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 12:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
1) Where does it say that team control is necessary for there to be a defensive team. To throw that ball back into JR's court, please cite a rule for me that says that.

2) I think that it is quite obvious that if one team is making a throw-in, the opponent is playing defense.
1) Common sense- a commodity which seems to be lacking in some of your wingy interpretations.

2) Obvious to who? You? Somehow methinks that doesn't make it so.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 03:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Common sense- a commodity which seems to be lacking in some of your wingy interpretations.

2) Obvious to who? You? Somehow methinks that doesn't make it so.
So your position is that defense doesn't exist unless there is team control by one team...
Well I can demonstrate using what is written in the rules book that your "common sense" isn't correct.

There are two statements in the Fundamentals which mention defense. In the first, there is no team control because the try has been released, which we know ends team control. However, the continuous motion interval is the topic of the second, which we know occurs while the player is still holding the ball and thus has team control.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals

7. The only infractions for which points are awarded are goaltending by the defense or basket interference at the opponent's basket.

17. “Continuous motion” applies both to tries and taps for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval which begins when the habitual trying or tapping movement starts and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

Therefore, defense can occur both while there is and also while there is not team control. Q.E.D.

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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 08:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Rush,
If you really want to get into detail on this, take some time and go read this entire thread. BktBallRef, Zoochy, and I discuss these plays with great precision. I hope that it helps you.

Throw-in/Backcourt violation?
Thanks for the thread reference....seems like I just read a lot of that somewhere....

Seems to me there needs to be a clarification on this somewhere.....I see both sides of the story and am still "up in the air" on this one....Am going to check and see on this with our local rules guy soon. ALso going to send to our state association...one of our gals with the state knows Mary Struckoff well and hope I can get clafication on these.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 09:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RushmoreRef
ALso going to send to our state association...one of our gals with the state knows Mary Struckoff well and hope I can get clafication on these.
Mary Struckhoff knows the rules about as well as Billy Packer.
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