Backcourt??

[RushmoreRef]

OK, let me try and get this straight..we're back to airborne.

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the frontcourt....A2 tips the ball toward the backcourt and A3 jumps from the frontcourt, catches the ball while airborne and lands in the backcourt....Since the inbound ended when A2 tipped the ball in the frontcourt then the ball has frontcourt status and A3 violated when he caught the ball as an airborne player and landed in the backcourt.

I'm either way off or it still seems easy to me

Whew....

1. This will very seldom happen....but if it does...
2. I still have no team control (in my mind) on a tip, so I don't have a violation
3. I also have no status for the ball on a tip on an inbounds - FC or BC (IMHO)
4. This is only applying to a tip by the inbounding team also, right?

and no, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or difficult

[Adam]

That's how the argument goes, yes. And, to clarify, this should be a violation on the "defense" if it's a violation on the "offense," because there's no defined "defense" if there's no team control.

Also, if A2 gains control of the ball and throws it before landing, then you'd have an easy violation on A3 once he lands in the BC. Likewise, if A2 gains control airborne under the allowance, he's allowed to land but he cannot pass to any teammate in the backcourt until he lands.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

OK, let me try and get this straight..we're back to airborne.

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the frontcourt....A2 tips the ball toward the backcourt and A3 jumps from the frontcourt, catches the ball while airborne and lands in the backcourt....Since the inbound ended when A2 tipped the ball in the frontcourt then the ball has frontcourt status and A3 violated when he caught the ball as an airborne player and landed in the backcourt.

I'm either way off or it still seems easy to me

Hmm - this is now making me reconsider. I'll get into the case book this afternoon and see if this is covered in any plays.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's how the argument goes, yes. And, to clarify, this should be a violation on the "defense" if it's a violation on the "offense," because there's no defined "defense" if there's no team control.

Also, if A2 gains control of the ball and throws it before landing, then you'd have an easy violation on A3 once he lands in the BC. Likewise, if A2 gains control airborne under the allowance, he's allowed to land but he cannot pass to any teammate in the backcourt until he lands.

Sorry, have to keep going...

You are saying the above is true or "true in the eyes of those who believe the provision ends when the throw in ends"...???

At least I now understand what you mean regarding the provisions ending...

[Adam]

Regarding the first part of my post, it's true in the eyes of those who believe the provision ends when the throwin ends. It's not my opinion, though, so I could be presenting it incorrectly. Logically, however, I see their reasoning so I think I've got it right even though I disagree.
Regarding the second paragraph of my post (#32), that part is true by rule and not really disputed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I understand what you're saying but how are you going to call a backcourt violation if there is no team-control established.

You can't. Team control is one of the four requirements for a BC violation:

1) TC
2) Ball in FC
3) A last to toouch before ball goes to BC
4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC

Exceptions for airborne players on defense, jump ball, throw-in.

What about below...

What if A1 (inbounding the ball) throws it toward A2 in As backcourt. B1, playing defense, bats the ball into As frontcourt and it is retrieved by B2....according to the other posts, no violation on B because they aren't penalized for their spot on the floor.

If the reverse happens, inbounds to A2 in As frontcourt and batted to As backcourt and A2 retrieves? Some are saying that's a violation?

"Some" are wrong. There was never any TC when the ball was in the FC.

[RushmoreRef]

Also, if A2 gains control of the ball and throws it before landing, then you'd have an easy violation on A3 once he lands in the BC. Likewise, if A2 gains control airborne under the allowance, he's allowed to land but he cannot pass to any teammate in the backcourt until he lands.

I agree because there is Player Control/Team Control in the first situation but the provision granted on the inbounds ends when the ball is passed because A2 is now causing the backcourt status of the ball.....I AGREE

I guess it's a topic that should be discussed and addressed in a case book play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

OK, let me try and get this straight..we're back to airborne.

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the frontcourt....A2 tips the ball toward the backcourt and A3 jumps from the frontcourt, catches the ball while airborne and lands in the backcourt....Since the inbound ended when A2 tipped the ball in the frontcourt then the ball has frontcourt status and A3 violated when he caught the ball as an airborne player and landed in the backcourt.

Hmmm - 9.9.1 Sit B seems to come close, but doesn't cover a tip.

Same with 4.12.6 - if the ball is tipped in the frontcourt, but recovered in the backcourt, no violation because there was no team control.

I think I'm up in the air still. I may e-mail this one in to my interpreter for guidance.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Hmmm - 9.9.1 Sit B seems to come close, but doesn't cover a tip.

Same with 4.12.6 - if the ball is tipped in the frontcourt, but recovered in the backcourt, no violation because there was no team control.

I think I'm up in the air still. I may e-mail this one in to my interpreter for guidance.

Same two case plays I looked at....4.12.6 would do the trick but it doesn't cover the airborne player last having frontcourt status....

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You can't. Team control is one of the four requirements for a BC violation:

1) TC
2) Ball in FC
3) A last to toouch before ball goes to BC
4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC

Exceptions for airborne players on defense, jump ball, throw-in.



"Some" are wrong. There was never any TC when the ball was in the FC.

I like this post and my interpretation is a tip doesn't change the provision for an airborne player being able to obtain a throw-in, tipped or not and land in the backcourt without a violation.....

If we did it with the other scenarios ...jump ball and a defensive player....a tip doesn't establish team control so why would it here?

EX - A jump ball tapped by A1 is then tipped by A2 who is in As frontcourt and caught by airborne A3 (jumped from his frontcourt, catches in midair and lands in his backcourt)....no team control, the jumpball is over but no team control yet so no BC violation. Anyone disagree?

There is frontcourt location in the above but no team control.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I like this post and my interpretation is a tip doesn't change the provision for an airborne player being able to obtain a throw-in, tipped or not and land in the backcourt without a violation.....

If we did it with the other scenarios ...jump ball and a defensive player....a tip doesn't establish team control so why would it here?

EX - A jump ball tapped by A1 is then tipped by A2 who is in As frontcourt and caught by airborne A3 (jumped from his frontcourt, catches in midair and lands in his backcourt)....no team control, the jumpball is over but no team control yet so no BC violation. Anyone disagree?

There is frontcourt location in the above but no team control.

I disagree. When A3 catches the ball, there's TC and the ball in the FC. It's not during the jump ball anymore, so the exception doesn't apply. It's a violation.

(And, your other post -- A1 inbounds to A2 who tips the ball to airborne A3 who gathers in the FC and lands in the BC -- is also a violation.)

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. When A3 catches the ball, there's TC and the ball in the FC. It's not during the jump ball anymore, so the exception doesn't apply. It's a violation.

(And, your other post -- A1 inbounds to A2 who tips the ball to airborne A3 who gathers in the FC and lands in the BC -- is also a violation.)

I see how the jump ball is a violation....but the other post

So you think when an inbounds is over because of a tipped ball (by either an offensive or defensive player in that teams frontcourt) and if a player jumps from his frontcourt, catches the ball in the air (gets player/team control) and he lands in his backcourt it is a violation...right? Because you have both Frontcourt ball location and frontcourt player location!

I have to agree here I guess....

Keys are:

1. tip in frontcourt that establishes ball location.
2. airborne player jumping from his frontcourt and securing ball in the air to establish team/player control.
3. landing in the backcourt with the ball or throwing it to another teammate in the backcourt..

OK then...

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. When A3 catches the ball, there's TC and the ball in the FC. It's not during the jump ball anymore, so the exception doesn't apply. It's a violation.

(And, your other post -- A1 inbounds to A2 who tips the ball to airborne A3 who gathers in the FC and lands in the BC -- is also a violation.)

Would you have to determine if the second tip to the airborne player is a controlled tip? Thus establishing the TC portion of the requirements. I am looking at it as more of an attempt to catch the ball but having it deflect (tip) off the fingers for no control.

So many posts saying so many things, I thought had this cold but now ....

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Would you have to determine if the second tip to the airborne player is a controlled tip? Thus establishing the TC portion of the requirements. I am looking at it as more of an attempt to catch the ball but having it deflect (tip) off the fingers for no control.

So many posts saying so many things, I thought had this cold but now ....

I have to admit, I've done a 180 on this, twice.

1. tip in front court establishes ball location (by anyone in frontcourt)
2. A jump by a player from his frontcourt means he last had frontcourt location.
3. by catching the ball while airborne he has both frontcourt ball status and frontcourt player status
4. by landing or throwning the ball into the backcourt which is first touched by a teammate .... a violation has been committed.

I don't think it matter if the first tip was incidental or intentional on this interpretation...just that it occurred in the frontcourt

a touch by the airborne player into the backcourt, if deemed unintentional would mean no player/team control and he or teammate could retrieve with no violation being committed.

Without the tip a leap from the frontcourt and catch in midair because you don't have frontcourt status with the ball...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I have to admit, I've done a 180 on this, twice.

1. tip in front court establishes ball location (by anyone in frontcourt)
2. A jump by a player from his frontcourt means he last had frontcourt location.
3. by catching the ball while airborne he has both frontcourt ball status and frontcourt player status
4. by landing or throwning the ball into the backcourt which is first touched by a teammate .... a violation has been committed.

I don't think it matter if the first tip was incidental or intentional on this interpretation...just that it occurred in the frontcourt

a touch by the airborne player into the backcourt, if deemed unintentional would mean no player/team control and he or teammate could retrieve with no violation being committed.

Without the tip a leap from the frontcourt and catch in midair because you don't have frontcourt status with the ball...

Rush,
If you really want to get into detail on this, take some time and go read this entire thread. BktBallRef, Zoochy, and I discuss these plays with great precision. I hope that it helps you.

Throw-in/Backcourt violation?