Free throws to start overtime---I'm confused!

[Camron Rust]

I, too, agree with Mark. Any foul involving an airborne shooter is part of the quarter in which the shot is taken. The effect of the airborne shooter rule is to extend the time that fouls on or against the airborne shooter can occur. While the rule doesn't explicitly spell it out, I beleive it to be the intent.

A1 dunks at the buzzer and is fouled hard before returning to the floor...A1 will be shooting FTs now. Fouls involving an airborne shooter are effectively treated as if they occured before the shot was released.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 31st, 2001 at 04:34 PM]

[Kelvin green]

First in response to BktBallRef... there is no place in the original question/ruling about the airborne shooter. The airborne shooter creates an issue that you wonder if the NCAA did not overlook. It would not be the first time the ruling body messed up on an interpretation.

Second I agree with Mark that penalties dont carry over, but the ruling stated... (b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws. So we have a foul after the period has ended, I think the ruling may be kinda correct. If a foul occurs after the period has ended, I can see why they would say administer it in OT but Shouldn't this contact be ignored... if it's not ignored it's a dead ball foul, and would be a T. I'm sorry but there are too many problems with this ruling looking at it on the face

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
I took agree with Mark. Any foul involving an airborne shooter is part of the quarter in which the shot is taken. The effect of the airborne shooter rule is to extend the time that fouls on or against the airborne shooter can occur. While the rule doesn't explicitly spell it out, I beleive it to be the intent.

A1 dunks at the buzzer and is fouled hard before returning to the floor...A1 will be shooting FTs now. Fouls involving an airborne shooter are effectively treated as if they occured before the shot was released.

Yeah, OK, I buy that but show me where in the rule book
it says that. While I agree that this might be the intent,
I can show you where it explicitly says the period ends
when the try ends and the try ends when the ball goes in.
I can't find where it says to extend the period until the
airborne shooter hits the floor. Can you?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
First in response to BktBallRef... there is no place in the original about the airborne shooter. The airborne shooter creates an issue that you wonder if the NCAA did not overlook. It would not be the first time the ruling body messed up on an interpretation.

Here's the play from the original post.
With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half (a) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just before time expires or (b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires.
R U L I N G : (a) When the foul occurs before the ball becomes dead and the period has ended, A1 shall shoot the two free throws. When one free throw is successful, the game is over. If one free throw is not successful, the game continues with an extra period(s). (b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.


Now, look at 4-40-1
The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

There is no other way for the foul to occur unless the player is an airborne shooter. If a player who is standing on the floor and has released the shot is no longer in the act of shooting. For the player to be fouled in the act of shooting after time has expired, he has to be an airborne shooter who has not returned to the floor..

So yes, the airborne shooter is in the original question/ruling.

************************************************** ***
With regards to Mark and Cameron, I will be glad to accept your interpretation if you can show me why the act of shooting extends the period. Now, as you said Mark, I'm not saying your response is illogical. But it is not addressed in the rules that the act of shooting extends the period. In fact, the play that you say is wrong is in the NCAA rule book. The play sates that the foul occurs after the period ends and the FTS are part of the next period. If I'm wrong, then the rule book is wrong and needs to be corrected.

[Kelvin green]

I will disagree. You can be in the act of shooting and not be an airborne shooter. As you quote ...The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

The rule only states it includes airborne shooter. You can be in the act of shooting and not be airborne.
Long before there was the airborne shooter rule, there was the act of shooting.

By your logic then you can never be in the act of shooting when you are standing flat-footed on the ground. The act of shooting may be shorter than someone with a good hang-time may be in the act of shooting longer, but a player laying on the ground could be in the act of shooting. I would also suggest that based on that then a person who is moving toward the basket and started up towards the basket is not an airborne shooter, yet continuous mtion applies and he has started the try, yet the shooter is not airborne. The airborne shooter definition and accompanying stuff was but in several years ago but the act of shooting rule has not changed.

[BktBallRef]

Kelvin, none of what you posted has anything to do with (b). Look at it:

With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half (b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires.

Time has expired.
The foul occurs after time has expired.
The player is in the act of shooting.
If the player's feet are on the floor and he's in the act of shooting, then the ball has not left his hand, since the act of shooting ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
If the ball has not left his hand, then there is no shot because time has expired.
Therefore, the only way that the player in (b) can be in the act of shooting is if he is an airborne shooter and has not returned to the floor yet.
Otherwise, the foul would be ignore, just as you posted earlier, because the ball would be dead.

The shooter in (b) is airborne. I don't know how else to explain it to you. If you still don't see it, perhaps you can tell me where the player is, where the ball is and how the player can be fouled when the ball is dead and still be in the act of shooting.

Don't try. It's not possible.

[Kelvin green]

Go figure... I can actually see a non airborne shooter in the act of shooting heres an extract from the original...(b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires. and the answer...b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.

The ruling on A was pretty easy since he was fouled before time expired, then with a "lag" or something the buzzer goes off so time has expired and soot two free throws...

Now for b...
It clearly says act of shooting after time expires. Here's where I have a fundamental issue with the ruling and question but I am picking apart their stuff.

So he is in the act of shooting, the ball is still in his hands, in the act, and he gets fouled after the horn has gone off...( he is some continuous motion to the basket or clearly shooting flat footed or a turn around hook where both feet never leave the floor etc...., but buzzer then foul, and ball is not away.)

It appears the NCAA is saying that since the person was in the act of shooting, the foul would be called even though the ball is dead. He was in the act so it has to be called but it is not a dead ball foul (T) because the act started before the ball became dead and it cant be ignored since he was in the act at the time the second half ended. The horn sounded/time expired with game tied, the foul then happens after the half so the FT's are administered to start OT.

Try explaining any of this the a coach why he shouldnt be shhoting to win the game, or converesely explain to the other coach why it was a foul. This play is a conumdrum that if it ever happened no one would be happy....

I think the foul that occurs after the horn it should be ignore altogether unless flagrant or intentional but who I am?

So I contend you can be in the act there and not be airborne but like you said its a great dscussion to have us think about definitions!!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Go figure... I can actually see a non airborne shooter in the act of shooting heres an extract from the original...(b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires. and the answer...b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.

The ruling on A was pretty easy since he was fouled before time expired, then with a "lag" or something the buzzer goes off so time has expired and soot two free throws...

Now for b...
It clearly says act of shooting after time expires. Here's where I have a fundamental issue with the ruling and question but I am picking apart their stuff.

So he is in the act of shooting, the ball is still in his hands, in the act, and he gets fouled after the horn has gone off...( he is some continuous motion to the basket or clearly shooting flat footed or a turn around hook where both feet never leave the floor etc...., but buzzer then foul, and ball is not away.)

It appears the NCAA is saying that since the person was in the act of shooting, the foul would be called even though the ball is dead. He was in the act so it has to be called but it is not a dead ball foul (T) because the act started before the ball became dead and it cant be ignored since he was in the act at the time the second half ended. The horn sounded/time expired with game tied, the foul then happens after the half so the FT's are administered to start OT.

Try explaining any of this the a coach why he shouldnt be shhoting to win the game, or converesely explain to the other coach why it was a foul. This play is a conumdrum that if it ever happened no one would be happy....

I think the foul that occurs after the horn it should be ignore altogether unless flagrant or intentional but who I am?

So I contend you can be in the act there and not be airborne but like you said its a great dscussion to have us think about definitions!!!

Hmmm, take a look at 6-6, Ball Does Not Become Dead,
Art 1 & 2. Says in black in white the ball must
be in flight for the ball to remain live on a foul at the
end of a period. This is a good one, aint it!