Free throws to start overtime---I'm confused!

[Lotto]

From the NCAA rule book, Rule 5, Section 7, Article 2:

A.R. 4. With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half (a) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just before time expires or (b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires.
R U L I N G : (a) When the foul occurs before the ball becomes dead and the period has ended, A1 shall shoot the two free throws. When one free throw is successful, the game is over. If one free throw is not successful, the game continues with an extra period(s). (b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.

My question is about part (b). How can you have a foul in the act of shooting after the second half has ended? The half doesn't end until the try is over!

Could someone explain exactly what is meant here?

Thanks!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Lotto
My question is about part (b). How can you have a foul in the act of shooting after the second half has ended? The half doesn't end until the try is over!

When the try ends and when the act of shooting ends have nothing to do with each other. The act of shooting ends when an airborne shooter returns to the floor. The half ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

In the play, they're saying that the try and the half ended prior to the airborne shooter returning to the floor. Unlikely but possible. Let's say A1 dunks the ball at the buzzer. As he returns to the floor, he is blocked by B1 who has moved underneath him, while he is in the air. That is what situation B is describing.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am not sure that the ruling in (b) is correct, which is not suprising because sometimes the rulings are made without looking at all of the rules that apply to the particular play.

Lets look at (b) all by itself.

A1 goes airborne (becomes an airborne player) and then releases a try for goal (becomes an airborne shooter) before time expires. A1 is an airborne shooter until he/she touches the court. The clock exprires and then the ball goes throw the basket, A1 is still airborne and is then fouled by B1.

Score the basket, two points for Team A (and A1). Personal foul by B1 against a player in the act of shooting, A1 is awarded one free throw.

NCAA R4-S1-A2: An airborne shooter is in the act of shooting.

A.R.1: A1 is in the air on a jump shot in the lane. A1
releases the ball on a try and is fouled by B1, who has
jumped in an unsuccessful attempt to block the shot.
A1's try is: (a) successful; or (b) unsuccessful.
RULIING: A1 shall be an airborne shooter when the ball
is released until he/she returns with one foot touching
the floor. An airborne shooter shall be in the act of
shooting. B1 has fouled A1 in the act of shooting. A1
shall be awarded one free throw in (a), and two in (b).

NCAA R5-S7-A2c: When a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the official timer cannot stop the clock before time expires or when the foul occurs after time expires but while the ball is in flight during a try. The period shall end when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.

In Play (b) above, the only thing that has happened is that playing time has expired, the second half has not ended until all related activity has been completed. Yes, R5-S7-A2c talks about the ball being in flight, but R4-S1-A2 prevails in this play.

If the score is tied and A1 makes his/her free throw, the game is over; or if A1 misses his/her free throw the game goes to overtime. If Team A is down by one point, and A1 makes his/her free throw, the game goes to overtime; or if A1 misses his/her free throw the game is over. If the outcome of the game will not change whether A1 makes his/her free throw or not, the free throw is not shot and the game is over.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I also forgot one other NCAA rule reference:

R5-S7-A3: No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period.

[BktBallRef]

I have no idea what the NCAA ruling would be. But I'm confident that I'm correct under NF rules. 5-6-3b explains that a the foul would be considered part of the 4th qtr. if the try is still in flight. In my example, the try has ended, the 4th qtr. has ended, and the foul comes afterwards. 5.6.3B is a similiar play. The OT is started with FTs.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Under both NFHS and NCAA rules the airborne shooter definition prevails. While the try for goal and act of shooting starts at the same time and the act of shooting ends with the release of the ball and the try ends when the shot is either made or is missed (I know about all of the exceptions). The airborne shooter definition extends the time of the act of shooting to when the shooter comes back down and touches the court, meaning the try could have ended by definition, but the act of shooting has not ended. This means that the foul against the shooter is part of the fourth quarter (NFHS), second half (NCAA), or overtime period (NFHS/NCAA).

In Play (b), A1's free throws are part of the second half.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Under both NFHS and NCAA rules the airborne shooter definition prevails. While the try for goal and act of shooting starts at the same time and the act of shooting ends with the release of the ball and the try ends when the shot is either made or is missed (I know about all of the exceptions). The airborne shooter definition extends the time of the act of shooting to when the shooter comes back down and touches the court, meaning the try could have ended by definition, but the act of shooting has not ended. This means that the foul against the shooter is part of the fourth quarter (NFHS), second half (NCAA), or overtime period (NFHS/NCAA).

In Play (b), A1's free throws are part of the second half.

You do mean the *current* overtime period, ie the foul
would *not* carry over. Right?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Correct.

[Kelvin green]

I can see where the NCAA is coming from (with exception of airborne shooter as Mark has so eloquently laid out)
Look carefully at the wording play A happens during the 4th quarter, Play B happens after the 4th quarter has ended. So I can see why they are saying shoot FT's to start the oT since the foul happened after the 4th quarter ended. However unless the foul was pretty rough or something like that I dont think most refs would ever call that. My question is that since this foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, and based on the wording the ball is dead, this would not be just two FT's it would be Two FT's and the ball because generally most fouls that occur in a dead ball period are T's...

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The airborne shooter definition extends the time of the act of shooting to when the shooter comes back down and touches the court, meaning the try could have ended by definition, but the act of shooting has not ended.

You're wrong Mark and you haven't cited anything that that proves the NCAA Rulebook play incorrect. When the try ends has nothing to due with when the act of shooting ends. When the try ends, the half ends. There's absolutely nothing in the rulebook that says the act of shooting extends the period. If that were true, a airborne player who was in the act of shooting could release the ball after the buzzer and it would count. That's why you were unable to cite a rule that states that the act of shooting extends the period.

Kelvin, the shooter in b is an airborne shooter. You cannot ignore contact on an airborne shooter, even if the ball is dead when the foul occurs.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

You're wrong Mark and you haven't cited anything that that proves the NCAA Rulebook play incorrect. When the try ends has nothing to due with when the act of shooting ends. When the try ends, the half ends. There's absolutely nothing in the rulebook that says the act of shooting extends the period. If that were true, a airborne player who was in the act of shooting could release the ball after the buzzer and it would count. That's why you were unable to cite a rule that states that the act of shooting extends the period.

Kelvin, the shooter in b is an airborne shooter. You cannot ignore contact on an airborne shooter, even if the ball is dead when the foul occurs.

Ah, but an airborne player is not the same as an
airborne shooter. The airborne shooter is granted
special status under both sets of rules that an airborne
player does not have.

FWIW, I'm siding with Mark on this, in fact I had envisioned
this play as relatng to obvious after the shot dead ball
fouls (T's), as Kelvin mentions above. It's not consistent
with the play scenario I know but I can't see any other
way to explain it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[
Ah, but an airborne player is not the same as an
airborne shooter. The airborne shooter is granted
special status under both sets of rules that an airborne
player does not have.

Okay, I can buy that an airborne player is not the same as an airborne shooter. That was a quick comparison on my part. But please cite the rule for me that states that the period is extended until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. I bet you can't because it doesn't exist. The period ends when the try ends, if time has expired. If the foul on the airborne shooter occurs after the end of the period, then we start the next period with FTs. It's no different than if a technical foul had been called at the exact same time. The foul on the ABS is not ignored.

It's clear as a bell, it's even right there in the NCAA rule book. But you guys are saying the rule book is wrong.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Okay, I can buy that an airborne player is not the same as an airborne shooter. That was a quick comparison on my part. But please cite the rule for me that states that the period is extended until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. I bet you can't because it doesn't exist. The period ends when the try ends, if time has expired. If the foul on the airborne shooter occurs after the end of the period, then we start the next period with FTs. It's no different than if a technical foul had been called at the exact same time. The foul on the ABS is not ignored.

It's clear as a bell, it's even right there in the NCAA rule book. But you guys are saying the rule book is wrong.

Hmmm, you may have something here. It seems the rules do
differentiate the end of a try and the act of
shooting related to the airborne shooter. I'm gonna
think about this for a little while & get back to you.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Did A1's act of shooting and try start during the second half? YES.

A1's act of shooting and try are part of the second half. A1 was fouled in the act of the shooting. The penalty for the foul in the act of shooting is part of the second half.
Both the NFHS and NCAA (see my second posting on the play) state that: "No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period."

Lets change Play (b) to make the contact between A1 and B1 charging by A1. No before anybody goes nuts, let me explain that under NCAA Men's Rules, this contact would be incidental unless it was intentional or flagrant. But under NFHS/NCAA Women's this would be a player control foul by A1 even if the contact was after the ball had become dead (meaning successful field goal attempt) and the goal would be disallowed and A1 would be charged with a player control foul.

The fact is that A1 was fouled in the act of shooting and the fouls that are the penalty for that foul are part of the second half. There is no way that the free throws can be part of the overtime period.

I think that if you would take this question to Ed Bilik, Barb Jacobs, and Mary Struckhoff, they will agree with me, because it would be illogical (not to say against the rules) for the penalty for a foul committed in the second to be part of the ensueing overtime period.

Just look at Play (b), has the second half clearly ended if A1 is still airborne and while still airborne is then fouled by B1.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Did A1's act of shooting and try start during the second half? YES.

A1's act of shooting and try are part of the second half. A1 was fouled in the act of the shooting. The penalty for the foul in the act of shooting is part of the second half.
Both the NFHS and NCAA (see my second posting on the play) state that: "No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period."

Lets change Play (b) to make the contact between A1 and B1 charging by A1. No before anybody goes nuts, let me explain that under NCAA Men's Rules, this contact would be incidental unless it was intentional or flagrant. But under NFHS/NCAA Women's this would be a player control foul by A1 even if the contact was after the ball had become dead (meaning successful field goal attempt) and the goal would be disallowed and A1 would be charged with a player control foul.

The fact is that A1 was fouled in the act of shooting and the fouls that are the penalty for that foul are part of the second half. There is no way that the free throws can be part of the overtime period.

I think that if you would take this question to Ed Bilik, Barb Jacobs, and Mary Struckhoff, they will agree with me, because it would be illogical (not to say against the rules) for the penalty for a foul committed in the second to be part of the ensueing overtime period.

Just look at Play (b), has the second half clearly ended if A1 is still airborne and while still airborne is then fouled by B1.

"No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period."

Mark, this is what I was thinking too. But a close
reading of the rules might indicate differently. As Tony
points out there's nothing in there to extend the period
merely because there's a shooter. We only extend
the period when there's a try, as far as I can
see. I'm still digging in the book, I made some inquiries
of my own as well. As for your bringing in the airborne
shooter rule wrt PC, I don't think it's relevant simply
because the try and the act of shooting are independent to
an extent. In fact in the women's rules and NFHS the
PC foul is extended to include the airborne shooter.

Anyway, it's a great discussion! I suspect Lotto's
question might not have been entirely innocent!