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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 08, 2006, 12:55am
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I've already changed my mind once today. I'm a guy, and that's my limit. Pro's for calling the delay of game: it's the rule. Team B just bailed out Team A, and it's their own fault. If A1 comes out and sees B1 behind the line reaching for the ball, he's less likely to go grab it. B1 just being there can be confusing and cause a delay of game.
Con's for calling it: B1 is likely just confused.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 08, 2006, 05:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Not so sure I agree. The throwin plane violation exists solely to prevent the defender from interfering with the ability of the thrower to make the throwin. Would anyone even consider calling the warning if a defender 50 feet down the sideline waived his arms across the line...even if it were by a full arm length? I didn't think so.

With no thrower, what possible purpose does calling a plane violation serve? More than likely B is worried that it is their ball and they're supposed to be there. Before putting the ball down, make absolutely sure that the defending team knows it is not their ball.
Agree. Give a big point in the direction the ball is going and a big verbal "A ball" at the same time too And if a defender still tries to wander OOB, a quiet little "Get your azz back on the court" from the administering official might also be the right way to go. If you you've done something like Dan recommended, you've gone the extra mile already with A to get them out of the huddle. If they want to still ignore you, it's on them. By rule, Nevada is right. But all you're really doing is bailing team A out because the plane violation by the defense had absolutely no bearing at all on the play.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 08, 2006, 08:58am
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Quote:
Agree. Give a big point in the direction the ball is going and a big verbal "A ball" at the same time too And if a defender still tries to wander OOB, a quiet little "Get your azz back on the court" from the administering official might also be the right way to go. If you you've done something like Dan recommended, you've gone the extra mile already with A to get them out of the huddle. If they want to still ignore you, it's on them. By rule, Nevada is right. But all you're really doing is bailing team A out because the plane violation by the defense had absolutely no bearing at all on the play.
I continually find myself siding more and more with Jurassic Referee's opinions on rules interpretations. I may need to seek professional counseling.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 08, 2006, 05:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishinRef
I continually find myself siding more and more with Jurassic Referee's opinions on rules interpretations. I may need to seek professional counseling.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 08, 2006, 06:23pm
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Originally Posted by refnrev
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 09, 2006, 08:28pm
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Calling a violation could make you a popular official

So.... (Nevada, particularly)

If you have already issued the first, and only, warning, now you're going to assess Team B with a Technical foul???!!!

That should make Team A pretty happy ... especially when they are still standing in their huddle.

In my opinion, this is the time for some preventive officiating. Straighten Team B out before they touch the ball ... if I'm on a very slow three (after the second horn and I've waited for a few seconds before beginning my count) and Team A hasn't even broke their huddle yet, I may just call the 5-second violation and give the ball to Team B.

If I'm not quick witted enough to stop Team B before they touch the ball, then I would say that Team B has just saved Team A's butt. I would stop the throw-in, correct the error by stopping Team B and if Team A has still not made it to the throw-in spot, put the ball down and begin the count again.

I'm surely not going to penalize Team B for getting onto the court first.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 09, 2006, 11:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTownTonyBrown
So.... (Nevada, particularly)

If you have already issued the first, and only, warning, now you're going to assess Team B with a Technical foul???!!!

That should make Team A pretty happy ... especially when they are still standing in their huddle.

In my opinion, this is the time for some preventive officiating. Straighten Team B out before they touch the ball ... if I'm on a very slow three (after the second horn and I've waited for a few seconds before beginning my count) and Team A hasn't even broke their huddle yet, I may just call the 5-second violation and give the ball to Team B.

If I'm not quick witted enough to stop Team B before they touch the ball, then I would say that Team B has just saved Team A's butt. I would stop the throw-in, correct the error by stopping Team B and if Team A has still not made it to the throw-in spot, put the ball down and begin the count again.

I'm surely not going to penalize Team B for getting onto the court first.
As you said this could potentially be a big call. If that is going to be the case, then my preference is to handle it by the book. I do not believe that it is my role to prevent Team B from doing anything that would bail out Team A. That is the job of their coach. My job is to be a neutral observer and penalize the rules infractions that are committed. I would be very apprehensive about doing what you advocate. In my opinion that crosses the line into very dangerous territory. You could be accused of aiding Team B.

What if Team A did this on purpose in an attempt to draw the T? For example, Team B already has a delay of game warning and Team A knows that. Team A trails by two points and has a throw-in from the sideline adjacent to their backcourt with only .1 remaining on the clock. Obviously, they can't catch and shoot, so the crafty coach takes a time-out and then rather than go for the low-percentage tap play, he opts utilize the RRP by holding his team near the bench following the second horn and risk the 5 second violation in an attempt to confuse Team B and draw them into breaking the plane (or even picking up the ball) once the official places it on the floor. If Team B fell for this what would you do?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 10, 2006, 01:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
... If Team B fell for this what would you do?
You would likely find me ROFLMAO.... I think your scenario is a bit of a stretch.

As an official you have a responsibility to administer the throw-in to the correct team. You would enforce that responsibility if both teams were ready. You would enforce that responsibility if only one team was ready. I tend to feel that you have administered the ball to Team A when you placed it on the floor and it is Team A that I am penalizing by beginning my count - the same as if they were standing there with the ball in their hands.

I just don't think I would allow Team B to interrupt that impending penalty if I could prevent it.

Crossing the OOB boundary because of confusion is not the same as sticking your hand across the plane during a throw-in.

When I'm standing there with the ball, waiting to administer to Red, and White steps out to make the throw-in, I don't call a delay violation or a technical foul - I inform White of their error and get the correct team, Red, for the throw-in. No penalty. I imagine that you would do the same in that situation. Setting the ball down for a particular team seems quite similar to me.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 10, 2006, 02:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTownTonyBrown
You would likely find me ROFLMAO.... I think your scenario is a bit of a stretch.

As an official you have a responsibility to administer the throw-in to the correct team. You would enforce that responsibility if both teams were ready. You would enforce that responsibility if only one team was ready. I tend to feel that you have administered the ball to Team A when you placed it on the floor and it is Team A that I am penalizing by beginning my count - the same as if they were standing there with the ball in their hands.

I just don't think I would allow Team B to interrupt that impending penalty if I could prevent it.

Crossing the OOB boundary because of confusion is not the same as sticking your hand across the plane during a throw-in.

When I'm standing there with the ball, waiting to administer to Red, and White steps out to make the throw-in, I don't call a delay violation or a technical foul - I inform White of their error and get the correct team, Red, for the throw-in. No penalty. I imagine that you would do the same in that situation. Setting the ball down for a particular team seems quite similar to me.
My comment for what is in red: Why are you only penalizing Team A and preventing Team B from doing something that would result in them being penalized? Are you friends with the coach of Team B? See how your choices could be construed?

My comment for what is in blue: There is properly no penalty for this because no rule is being broken. The ball is still dead while you are holding it in your hands. After you set the ball down on the floor, you have made it live and have a completely different situation. At least that's how it seems to me.
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