Call it or not??

It's not a foul without some sort of advantage.

How can you call a game based strictly on whether the player gained some advantage?

How many times to you see a player fouled on the arm on a shot after the release of the ball? These get called all the time. Where is the advantage to the defender? The ball is already in the air. The contact has absolutely nothing to do with the path of the ball and doesn't affect its flight.
Are you saying you never call this type of foul?

I think you'd have a lot of PO'd coaches if you went strictly on whether there was an advantage gained and not by the rules as stated.

[JRutledge]

I have no idea if you are addressing me but I will bite.

Originally Posted by PYRef

How can you call a game based strictly on whether the player gained some advantage?

Easy, the rules say so. The rules even say contact can be severe and not a foul. If you do not believe me, look up incidental contact in the rulebook and see for yourself.

Originally Posted by PYRef

How many times to you see a player fouled on the arm on a shot after the release of the ball? These get called all the time. Where is the advantage to the defender? The ball is already in the air. The contact has absolutely nothing to do with the path of the ball and doesn't affect its flight.

Are you saying you never call this type of foul?

In my opinion you are not using very good logic. A player is supposed to land without being contacted illegally while they are an airborne shooter. If a defender cannot defend a shot legally without making contact with a shooter who is airborne or a player that has reached the floor, then that would be a foul if the contact did not allow the player normal movement. Just because the ball is gone out of the shooter's hand, it does not mean you cannot put a shooter at a disadvantage.

Originally Posted by PYRef

I think you'd have a lot of PO'd coaches if you went strictly on whether there was an advantage gained and not by the rules as stated.

I can only speak for me, I do not care what coaches think. If you are worried about how mad a coach gets and you follow the rules, then you have bigger problems than whether you call a foul or not. Once again, this is just my opinion.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In my opinion you are not using very good logic. A player is supposed to land without being contacted illegally while they are an airborne shooter. If a defender cannot defend a shot legally without making contact with a shooter who is airborne or a player that has reached the floor, then that would be a foul if the contact did not allow the player normal movement. Just because the ball is gone out of the shooter's hand, it does not mean you cannot put a shooter at a disadvantage.



Peace

Kind of contradicts your stance on that blocked shot, lots of contact after the block, no-call philosophy you have argued for in the past.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Kind of contradicts your stance on that blocked shot, lots of contact after the block, no-call philosophy you have argued for in the past.

How is that a contradiction? Most block shots are going to involve contact. You cannot call all contact a foul. I have clearly said in the past that a clean block shot that the contact should in most cases be considered incidental. Too many times I see a foul called on body contact when the defender got to the ball first and jumped straight up or was just a bigger and stronger player. Also if you have read what I have said in the past, this is expected to be called at the levels I work both HS and college. I was at a D1 camp this summer and a D1 official called a foul on a clean block and significant contact after the block shot and was told the official "That was a play thru." Obviously I did not say anything about this play but the clinician who is also a long time D1 official made it clear what should be called and why. He gave the exact same explanation as I have here in the past and right now.

I think you are trying to apply one situation with a completely different situation. Also just because there is contact on a shooter does not mean there was a foul. Sometime shooters are out of control and calling a foul on a defender even without the shot being blocked would be completely wrong to do. Remember, you and I do not work in the same places or with the same people. Remember that "regional thing" you talk about.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How is that a contradiction? Most block shots are going to involve contact. You cannot call all contact a foul. I have clearly said in the past that a clean block shot that the contact should in most cases be considered incidental. Too many times I see a foul called on body contact when the defender got to the ball first and jumped straight up or was just a bigger and stronger player. Also if you have read what I have said in the past, this is expected to be called at the levels I work both HS and college. I was at a D1 camp this summer and a D1 official called a foul on a clean block and significant contact after the block shot and was told the official "That was a play thru." Obviously I did not say anything about this play but the clinician who is also a long time D1 official made it clear what should be called and why. He gave the exact same explanation as I have here in the past and right now.

I think you are trying to apply one situation with a completely different situation. Also just because there is contact on a shooter does not mean there was a foul. Sometime shooters are out of control and calling a foul on a defender even without the shot being blocked would be completely wrong to do. Remember, you and I do not work in the same places or with the same people. Remember that "regional thing" you talk about.

Peace

Maybe I should hit the archieve...as I remember it, you were on record that even significant contact post block...even knocking a player to the floor...should be considered incidental. Yet here you are saying contact on the arm that hinders a player's normal landing could be a foul.

No contradiction huh?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Maybe I should hit the archieve...as I remember it, you were on record that even significant contact post block...even knocking a player to the floor...should be considered incidental. Yet here you are saying contact on the arm that hinders a player's normal landing could be a foul.

No contradiction huh?

The operative word is "block." There is a huge difference between a block and not a block.

Peace

In my opinion you are not using very good logic. A player is supposed to land without being contacted illegally while they are an airborne shooter. If a defender cannot defend a shot legally without making contact with a shooter who is airborne or a player that has reached the floor, then that would be a foul if the contact did not allow the player normal movement. Just because the ball is gone out of the shooter's hand, it does not mean you cannot put a shooter at a disadvantage.

Yeah if you knock him off balance on the way down. But I'm talking about minor contact on the arm after the release. Turn on any NCAA game on ESPN and see that called all the time.

Far be it from me to question the way anybody else calls a game, that's for sure. I'm just trying to broaden my perspective. However, who's to say that the incidental foul you won't call, couldn't have an adverse affect on the gameplay? Just because you don't see the advantage gained? I thought that's why the rules are there in the first place.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Yeah if you knock him off balance on the way down. But I'm talking about minor contact on the arm after the release. Turn on any NCAA game on ESPN and see that called all the time.

Far be it from me to question the way anybody else calls a game, that's for sure. I'm just trying to broaden my perspective. However, who's to say that the incidental foul you won't call, couldn't have an adverse affect on the gameplay? Just because you don't see the advantage gained? I thought that's why the rules are there in the first place.

Let me put it this way. In the real world we apply philosophies that you can agree or disagree with. Multiple fouls are in the rulebook and most officials I know claim they would never call one right or wrong. Incidental contact is clearly in the rulebook and states that all contact is not a foul and contact can be severe and still not be a foul. Then in that same definition they talk about not affecting normal offensive and defensive movement. To me a block is always going to have contact. Not every defender is Patrick Ewing and can jump up and swat the ball into the cheap seats. Most blocks are going to involve some contact. Now I work football and I equate this philosophy I talked about in basketball the same way we apply holding calls. No where in the rules does it say anything about point of attack and other factors such as strong legs and if a defender is making an effort to get away from the block. But every competent football official I know uses that philosophy and if they did not there would be a holding almost every single play a football game. As I have said time and time again, there is a reason some officials get more opportunities because they apply certain philosophies and a reason others are watching the big games instead of getting hired.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The operative word is "block." There is a huge difference between a block and not a block.

Peace

Yeah, I forgot how a block ends air borne shooter status in the rules.

[JRutledge]

I did not say that a block ends anything.

This is also what the rules say under 4-27-2 says, “Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort to reach a loose ball or contact which may result when opponents are in an equally favorable position to perform normal defensive and offensive movements, should not be considered illegal even though the contact may be severe.”

Now from my point of view an airborne shooter almost never going to have many shots blocked without some contact. So I guess in your point of view if a shooter is blocked cleanly with the ball and then part of the follow through by the defender pushes the arm of the airborne shooter, there should be a foul no matter what because the shooter is still airborne.

Maybe that works in the girl’s game, but that does not work very well in the boy's game.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

His point may be valid in a sence, but the last time I checked, a slap on the arm is a foul. If not, then we need to move to the football forum.

Advantage/disadvantage. I don't care if it's a slap or not. If it's an unnecessary game interrupter, I'm letting it go. I haven't worked a JH game in some time, though, so maybe at that level....

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say that a block ends anything.

This is also what the rules say under 4-27-2 says, “Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort to reach a loose ball or contact which may result when opponents are in an equally favorable position to perform normal defensive and offensive movements, should not be considered illegal even though the contact may be severe.”

Now from my point of view an airborne shooter almost never going to have many shots blocked without some contact. So I guess in your point of view if a shooter is blocked cleanly with the ball and then part of the follow through by the defender pushes the arm of the airborne shooter, there should be a foul no matter what because the shooter is still airborne.

Maybe that works in the girl’s game, but that does not work very well in the boy's game.

Peace

How about defending your contradiction without the spin or the sneaky little insults...huh?

When was the last boys state semi-final or final you did? Care to guess mine?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

How about defending your contradiction without the spin or the sneaky little insults...huh?

I clearly answered your question, if you do not want to accept my answer or the reasoning that is OK with me. Not only did I answer your question, I showed you the rules and gave you examples that could apply and what I was told as well as others at a very high level camp. Also I did not throw out an insult towards you in any way, I just stating a fact. This might be something that is acceptable in a girl's game where much less contact for fouls is acceptable from what I have seen at the HS to college ranks. This is the reason many officials choose or are expected to choose. If you think that was directed towards you, then maybe you are a little sensitive about your resume.

I worked a tournament on Friday and Saturday after Thanksgiving and 3 of the 4 games I worked had 7 footers on the floor. In 2 of the games there were 7 footers on both teams and multiple Division 1 talent on the floor. There were many blocks with contact by these players and if we would have called these fouls, we would have been run off the court. Of course there were a couple of times where there was a cry for a foul, but the coaches quickly backed off when they realized the same was being called when their 7 footer was given the same kind of call (or no call) with their defender.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

When was the last boys state semi-final or final you did? Care to guess mine?

Let me address this. What is the significance of working a Semi-final? In my state there is no such special assignment and the officials that work what is called "working downstate" or going to the State Tournament, working the Semi-Final is just another assignment at the State Tournament. All State Final officials that work in the state tournament are given the same consideration as it relates to Power Points or prestige. As a matter of fact is common for first time State Final official to work a Semi-Final in our state.

I will also say this. I have not worked that far in the tournament. Also we do not work a Regional one year and the next year work the State Finals. Your system if likely very different than the system I work under and probably many other people that are reading this. If we use your logic, Teddy Valentine (I could give other examples) is not the official you are because he never worked a HS varsity game like you or I have worked. I think he has been on national TV a lot more than you or I have.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I clearly answered your question, if you do not want to accept my answer or the reasoning that is OK with me. Not only did I answer your question, I showed you the rules and gave you examples that could apply and what I was told as well as others at a very high level camp. Also I did not throw out an insult towards you in any way, I just stating a fact. This might be something that is acceptable in a girl's game where much less contact for fouls is acceptable from what I have seen at the HS to college ranks. This is the reason many officials choose or are expected to choose. If you think that was directed towards you, then maybe you are a little sensitive about your resume.

I worked a tournament on Friday and Saturday after Thanksgiving and 3 of the 4 games I worked had 7 footers on the floor. In 2 of the games there were 7 footers on both teams and multiple Division 1 talent on the floor. There were many blocks with contact by these players and if we would have called these fouls, we would have been run off the court. Of course there were a couple of times where there was a cry for a foul, but the coaches quickly backed off when they realized the same was being called when their 7 footer was given the same kind of call (or no call) with their defender.




Let me address this. What is the significance of working a Semi-final? In my state there is no such special assignment and the officials that work what is called "working downstate" or going to the State Tournament, working the Semi-Final is just another assignment at the State Tournament. All State Final officials that work in the state tournament are given the same consideration as it relates to Power Points or prestige. As a matter of fact is common for first time State Final official to work a Semi-Final in our state.

I will also say this. I have not worked that far in the tournament. Also we do not work a Regional one year and the next year work the State Finals. Your system if likely very different than the system I work under and probably many other people that are reading this. If we use your logic, Teddy Valentine (I could give other examples) is not the official you are because he never worked a HS varsity game like you or I have worked. I think he has been on national TV a lot more than you or I have.

Peace

Typical...You said that contact after a block is incidental, correct?

Yet you said that contact after the shot that hinders a normal landing can be a foul earlier in this thread, correct?

You denied that you were not saying that a blocked shot ends the airborne shooter protection, yet you completely contradict yourself with those two statements.

An airborne shooter is an airborne shooter, contact that hinders normal movement is a foul and that is the same if the shot is released clean or the shot was blocked...that is what the rulebook says, you know the rule you quoted.

And you threw out the girls ref snipe, so you get what you dish out...so rare that when backed into the corner by his BS, Rut pulls out his "resume" of all the 7 footers he officiates...lame, very lame...and it's lame in the great state of Illinois too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Typical...You said that contact after a block is incidental, correct?

Yet you said that contact after the shot that hinders a normal landing can be a foul earlier in this thread, correct?

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Originally Posted by blindzebra

You denied that you were not saying that a blocked shot ends the airborne shooter protection, yet you completely contradict yourself with those two statements.

I treat a blocked shot differently than a defender that completely whiffs on a blocked shot and runs over shooter. I also treat a shooter that is flying through the lane differently than a defender flying at a straight jump shot. There are a lot of factors that can play a role. I guess if an airborne shooter makes contact with a defender that has established LGP there always has to be a PC foul as well?

Originally Posted by blindzebra

An airborne shooter is an airborne shooter, contact that hinders normal movement is a foul and that is the same if the shot is released clean or the shot was blocked...that is what the rulebook says, you know the rule you quoted.

To you they are the same thing, to me they are not. The definition of an airborne shooter is just that, a definition. It does not mean that under any circumstance is a foul called on because someone touched the airborne shooter. If the rulebook says all contact is not a foul, not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

And you threw out the girls ref snipe, so you get what you dish out...so rare that when backed into the corner by his BS, Rut pulls out his "resume" of all the 7 footers he officiates...lame, very lame...and it's lame in the great state of Illinois too.

I made the "girl's" comment because that is an observation I have made and others have made on and off this site. Obviously I struck a nerve with you that to most officials I know would never get upset or think of this as a personal attack. I had this very conversation with one of my partners at a Thanksgiving Tournament (who also had the 7 footers in our games) because he works Women's college and I work Men's college. We talked openly about the differences and the expectations of the sides as it relates to contact and the "letting them play" mentality. The partner that I am talking about also was the person that made the comparison first and we elaborated on those differences.

BTW, the two of the 7 footers were from other states. One of them is from the only Prep school in Illinois and all were going to Division 1 programs when they graduate. If I wanted to use this as a resume I would direct you to the web site and tell you where this was located. I have not done that because the only relevance this has to the conversation is what was expected of the officials that worked this tournament and other levels of ball. Just this week alone I worked with a 30 year veteran who worked multiple state finals, two college officials, one of them worked Division 1 in the past and the other worked a State Final a couple of years ago and we had several plays like I have described in this thread when a block occurred and nothing was called by anyone. So since state finals mean something to you, why did they pass on these plays? Were they wrong in their judgment too? Did they not apply the rule properly?

Peace