Call it or not??

[IREFU2]

All I am saying is that a slap on the arm (overlooked for whatever reason) could end up being a problem on the other end of the floor. In some cases, preventive officiating is actually calling those types of fouls, especially with these kids today and their quick tempers

[Junker]

I agree, it could become a problem, but in a lot of leagues, the players and coaches know they have to play through that kind of contact.

[Ref in PA]

Who is to say the slap on the arm did not create an advantage?

Consider this. B1 gets the rebound, and has the ball protected. Players from both teams begin moving up court. B1 will now start to look for the outlet pass. A1 comes from behind, takes a swipe at the ball, gets all arm, and moves up court. B1 now hesitates because of the contact, takes an extra pivot to make sure he is clear. The swipe by A1 allowed team A to get back on defense, perhaps stopping a cherry picker lay up. In my mind, an advantage was gained by team A to be able to set up on defense. A lot of ground can be made up on a basketball court in a 1/2 second. Was the ball knocked loose? No. Was possession lost? No. But there are other advantages that can be gained. Just something to think about.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

His point may be valid in a sence, but the last time I checked, a slap on the arm is a foul. If not, then we need to move to the football forum.

My question is what rule says a "slap on the arm is a foul." If you think there's advantage, then call a foul. But if there's no advantage, then you generally don't have a foul. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they're situational exceptions.

As Junker noted, you probably need to call it at the JH level, especially if you sense the players are testing the limits, but I'd say there are times when it could be let go even at this level.

My point is it's not an "obvious foul", as written. It's definitely not "borderline intentional" unless you think he was aiming for the arm.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Who is to say the slap on the arm did not create an advantage?

Consider this. B1 gets the rebound, and has the ball protected. Players from both teams begin moving up court. B1 will now start to look for the outlet pass. A1 comes from behind, takes a swipe at the ball, gets all arm, and moves up court. B1 now hesitates because of the contact, takes an extra pivot to make sure he is clear. The swipe by A1 allowed team A to get back on defense, perhaps stopping a cherry picker lay up. In my mind, an advantage was gained by team A to be able to set up on defense. A lot of ground can be made up on a basketball court in a 1/2 second. Was the ball knocked loose? No. Was possession lost? No. But there are other advantages that can be gained. Just something to think about.

Yup, and if you judge there is an advantage (it only needs to be clear to you), then call it. I'm not saying this can't be a foul; only that as written in the OP, it might not be.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Who is to say the slap on the arm did not create an advantage?

The official with the responsibility to make the call, same as always.

[blindzebra]

There can be many different philosophies put into play in this situation.

If the game was physical and getting more so, you might want to call a loud slap like that, to keep things from escalating.

If it's loud and out in the open, this might just fall under the good old call the obvious.

Not that I agree, but if there is one of those 7-1/10-2 team foul counts going, and that slap was by the team with 1 or 2 you might go get it.

Lower levels, I'm more likely to get it than varsity or above.

[JRutledge]

Foul calls are clearly judgment calls. No one here can tell if this call was a good or bad call by reading something on a discussion board. In my opinion if the "slap" did not make the player lose the ball, knock them off balance, affect what they would have normally been able to do or was not an attempt to foul the player near the end of the game, I would likely pass on this. Touching someone is not a foul. And what is considered a "slap" is also a judgment call. Even for me at the JH level I would likely pass on this, but kids at this level cannot handle a lot of contact either. This is after all why we get paid the big bucks and why some officials are deemed JH officials and others move up the ranks. All we are doing here is giving our opinions. You have to decide what works for you in the end.

Peace

[emtp]

You might want to examine why the game got to the point of being physical and feeling the need to call this foul if no advantage was gained by the defense

[Old School]

Here's the deal. It's already been mention. If you choose to let this foul go, guaranteed, late in the game. Watch the player who just got foul. On the way up the court, he/she retaliates. Now, you blast the retaliation. That's not right, either. I agree that it doesn't need to be called every single time you see it. But when it's loud like that, and the intensity has risen in the game, something you need to be aware of, nobody going to complain about you blasting that one.

I do want to mention something about the look on the coaches face. You indicated that his resentment made you feel uncomfortable. You better get use to that because it's going to happen I lot more in your career. Best to not even look at the coach. Focus on the table, report your foul and take the ball back out. The only thing you need to look at the coach for is timeouts and if they have a question.

I had one coach who I had given an Tech for complaining too much earlier in the game, really gave me a dirty look after a quick steal by his team in a very close playoff game. I blew a double dribble on his player who had a open layup to take the lead. He looked at me as if I totally blew the call. At this particular point in the game, I doubted myself because of his look. The reason I'm mentioning this is because this is the coaches job to try and get into your head. If successful, they will have you second guessing yourself. After the game, I asked the person at the table if they saw the call I made. They said, yes they did and it was the right call, hell yea, he double dribble. So I learned not to even look at the coach after I make a call. I mean his look was such that I could have gave him another technical for staring me down.

Don't shoot the messenger....

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

I mean his look was such that I could have gave him another technical for staring me down..

Really, Chuck, I'm surprised you can even type this. Could have gave?? Now that's too awful for words!!

[mick]

Originally Posted by frank22

Last night in Junior High game, A1 controls rebound and stands still waiting for everyone else to clear out. B2 comes around the backside of A1 and slaps the arm instead of the ball. Close game and getting more physical as time went on, I called foul. I noticed the coach's face on the way down the court and he didn't look happy about the call. He did not say anything though. Should I have let it go?

frank22,
From here it looked like the coach agreed with the call, but didn't like his player gettin' beat like that.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My question is what rule says a "slap on the arm is a foul."

10-6-1: A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip, or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics. He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

It is not too much of a stretch for a slap to be considered a rough tactic, is it?

The line in red is in pretty simple language, is it not? I'm all for the principal of advantage/disadvantage, but there are limits: A1 and B1 are fighting for position in the lane. As A2 takes a shot, B1 shoves A1 out of bounds. the shot is good, so there is no rebound. What advantage did B1 gain? This is still a foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-6-1: A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip, or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics. He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

It is not too much of a stretch for a slap to be considered a rough tactic, is it?

The line in red is in pretty simple language, is it not? I'm all for the principal of advantage/disadvantage, but there are limits: A1 and B1 are fighting for position in the lane. As A2 takes a shot, B1 shoves A1 out of bounds. the shot is good, so there is no rebound. What advantage did B1 gain? This is still a foul.

This tells me who is responsible for the contact. It's not a foul without some sort of advantage. Now, let me add this, if the slap is hard enough to be considered "rough tactics," I'll call it. With a slap, though, it can be relatively light and still come out pretty loud.

With your play, I've got an advantage gained. If A1 gets shoved out of bounds, then he starts off the ensuing play at a disadvantage. As far as I'm concerned, displacement is almost always an advantage.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This tells me who is responsible for the contact. It's not a foul without some sort of advantage. Now, let me add this, if the slap is hard enough to be considered "rough tactics," I'll call it. With a slap, though, it can be relatively light and still come out pretty loud.

With your play, I've got an advantage gained. If A1 gets shoved out of bounds, then he starts off the ensuing play at a disadvantage. As far as I'm concerned, displacement is almost always an advantage.

This isn't an a/d issue, it's a game control issue. Trying to reach in and smack the ball loose in this situation is just poor defense. It also starts people's tempers flaring. If it happens more than once or twice, and the coaches aren't hollering at their kids to knock it off, I think you need to call it just to clean it up. It's really no different than getting an early handcheck or post foul; you're just showing them where the boundaries are. You'll rarely have to call this twice in a game.