Is this curse worthy of a "T"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

That classroom standard is what teachers are taught when they go to college. I don't believe you would find any teacher education program which teaches a teacher that it is appropriate for them to say that phrase used originally in the first post in this thread, regardless of where they are being taught, or where they are located. That is the standard that I am referring to.

I am not a teacher. So to talk about what teachers are taught is not my job. Also I am sure teachers in different areas learn to adjust if they work in different types of schools. I know that an inner-city area is treated a little different than an affluent suburb where everyone in the parking lot has a high-end car. There are also standards that are different from a private Catholic school as compared to a public school in the same area. Did you see the Charlie Weis piece on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago?

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Your example is a case of a hidden meaning - there is no hidden meaning in obscenity or profanity.

I bet if I used a few slang words you might not have any idea what they mean. The only reason you would not say they were obscene or profane is because you would not know what they were.

BTW, the coach I was talking about has used profanity before in games I have officiated. I do not recall that he was ever suspended for those words, but he was suspended for his comments that were seen very insensitive to those victims of the Holocaust.

Peace

[Junker]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

So you're saying this is appropriate for a teacher to say to a student? That is what the test should be, since the NFHS defines high school sports as an extention of the classroom.

That's not my decision as an official. That's between the coach and his or her administrators. Hell is not a word that I would think too many people take offense to. I wouldn't say a word to this coach in this situation. If a coach is using words are less suitable, like sh#* or the F bomb, I'll walk over and tell them to please watch their language so I don't have to address it with a whistle.

[tjones1]

If I were put in this situation, I would just continue down the floor, as most people have said. Chances are, if you get him for this, you're going to get him again about 10 seconds after you call the first T.

IMO, he'll have only earned one of them.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not a teacher. So to talk about what teachers are taught is not my job. Also I am sure teachers in different areas learn to adjust if they work in different types of schools. I know that an inner-city area is treated a little different than an affluent suburb where everyone in the parking lot has a high-end car. There are also standards that are different from a private Catholic school as compared to a public school in the same area. Did you see the Charlie Weis piece on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago?

No - but that doesn't change what is appropriate for a teacher to say. What is accepted (what would raise eyebrows, get someone fired, etc) may change from place to place, but in no case would it be consdered appropriate.

Also, the role of the coach is that of a teacher. That is how high school sports are set up. They don't have to attend college to become a high school (or grade school) coach. But they are expected to run their sport as an extention of the classroom.

Someone else said that you don't have the same climate as you do in a classroom in a game. That is correct - but it doesn't change the fact that it is supposed to be an extention of the classroom - not exactly like, but definitely not somewhere that obscenity or profanity is acceptable for adults to use around or toward children.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I bet if I used a few slang words you might not have any idea what they mean. The only reason you would not say they were obscene or profane is because you would not know what they were.

BTW, the coach I was talking about has used profanity before in games I have officiated. I do not recall that he was ever suspended for those words, but he was suspended for his comments that were seen very insensitive to those victims of the Holocaust.

Peace

Often, even though they are supposed to be held to the same standards, that kind of behavior is tolerated, even accepted, by football coaches, some basketball coaches, etc (Bobby Knight, for example).

It is possible that I would not know what they mean, and so I would be unable to address that situation. That doesn't make saying them right - it just means I can't enforce the rules because I don't know everything. Again, a case of hidden meaning.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Junker

That's not my decision as an official. That's between the coach and his or her administrators. Hell is not a word that I would think too many people take offense to. I wouldn't say a word to this coach in this situation. If a coach is using words are less suitable, like sh#* or the F bomb, I'll walk over and tell them to please watch their language so I don't have to address it with a whistle.

You're only going to warn for the F-Bomb? Wow... that is a tad too lenient in my book. Sorry - that is WAY too lenient in my book.

[JRutledge]

David,

You are flat out wrong. Not everything in this world is that black and white. Also I find it funny you want to get so worried about what is appropriate as it relates to language, but when it comes to mechanics standards you were willing to throw out those standards to fit your personal position. This suggests to me that different people from different areas are not the same.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

David,

You are flat out wrong. Not everything in this world is that black and white. Also I find it funny you want to get so worried about what is appropriate as it relates to language, but when it comes to mechanics standards you were willing to throw out those standards to fit your personal position. This suggests to me that different people from different areas are not the same.

Peace

I don't remember mechanics coming up in this discussion. However... as I clearly stated in that other thread, Mechanics are suggestions - Rules are Rules - It is suggested (however strongly) that you follow the mechanics for the sport you are officiating. The rules are to be followed - period. Otherwise, why have them? Why not just say "Take the ball out on the floor, decide how you guys want to play this game, and we'll decide what we would like to consider legal and illegal." - you wouldn't have a game - you'd have a circus.

And for someone saying something isn't black and white.. "You are flat out wrong" is very black and white....

The world would be a lot simpler if people would take things as much more black and white than they normally do. It's the areas of grey, expanded by people who don't like black and white, that cause most of the problems. Think of the rules of basketball, just as a simple example - most of the interpretations come from rules which are not as clear in a black-and-white sense, or because people read into the situation, making their own greyspace. I would say...this is the way it is supposed to be - so do it that way, and there would be a lot less problems.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I don't remember mechanics coming up in this discussion. However... as I clearly stated in that other thread, Mechanics are suggestions - Rules are Rules - It is suggested (however strongly) that you follow the mechanics for the sport you are officiating. The rules are to be followed - period. Otherwise, why have them? Why not just say "Take the ball out on the floor, decide how you guys want to play this game, and we'll decide what we would like to consider legal and illegal." - you wouldn't have a game - you'd have a circus.

You can say rules are rules, but this rule is very subjective. Even your explanation of what should be "appropriate" is not based on what the rule is. Now I have no problem with your application if it works for you. Knock yourself out and call a T every single time if you see fit. But the language then NF use is going to change from one person to another and is going to change depending on who we work for. Of course you can talk about what you will call; you use a term that is no where in the rule. I also feel that sporting events are an extension of the classroom, but every action just like in the classroom do not send you to detention.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

The world would be a lot simpler if people would take things as much more black and white than they normally do. It's the areas of grey, expanded by people who don't like black and white, that cause most of the problems.

What world do you live in? Obviously not the one I want to be associated with.

Peace

[Larks]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I don't remember mechanics coming up in this discussion. However... as I clearly stated in that other thread, Mechanics are suggestions - Rules are Rules - It is suggested (however strongly) that you follow the mechanics for the sport you are officiating. The rules are to be followed - period. Otherwise, why have them? Why not just say "Take the ball out on the floor, decide how you guys want to play this game, and we'll decide what we would like to consider legal and illegal." - you wouldn't have a game - you'd have a circus.

I think you are way out numbered with this philosophy.

COMMON SENSE. Do you call traveling in 3rd grade games? I dont unless the kid carries it like a football. Yet there are travels EVERYWHERE in those games! OMG, I set aside a rule!! But if I didnt, we'd be there all day and no one would have any fun. What about incidental to moderate body contact on a shot in the paint? It is drilled into to us to have a patient whistle there to see if the shot goes or not. Missed shot....foul. Make....nothing. Isnt this in a way, setting aside a rule? Or is it GOOD JUDGEMENT?

My point is we adjust the rules to each game and situation all the time so the argument that we make em up as we go isnt very good relative to the profanity issue.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can say rules are rules, but this rule is very subjective. Even your explanation of what should be "appropriate" is not based on what the rule is. Now I have no problem with your application if it works for you. Knock yourself out and call a T every single time if you see fit. But the language then NF use is going to change from one person to another and is going to change depending on who we work for. Of course you can talk about what you will call; you use a term that is no where in the rule. I also feel that sporting events are an extension of the classroom, but every action just like in the classroom do not send you to detention.

True - but certainly isn't going to get ignored either, as some people said they would do on the basketball court. And I would certainly not expect the administration to ignore a teacher who is using language or talking to kids the way it was described in the original post.

Something is wrong with your phrase - But the language then NF use is going to change from one person to another and is going to change depending on who we work for - I don't know what you meant to say.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What world do you live in? Obviously not the one I want to be associated with.

Peace

I would rather be in a world where the rules and expectations were spelled out clearly, and in general, people followed them. The "victim" mentality present in our world is based mostly on the greyspace I'm referring to. "Yeah, that's the rule, but I shouldn't have to follow it because...", or "Yeah, the coffee is hot, and I expected it to be hot, because I would have complained if you gave me lukewarm coffee, but because I spilled it on myself, I should be able to get money from you because you didn't TELL me in 5 different ways that it was hot." If the coach just took responsibility for his actions and choices (not using the language, or accepting the technical if he chooses to), things would be a lot smoother.

And yes, I know this isn't a perfect world. But I'll tell you what - when I taught middle school, I had 2 goals for the kids by the time they got out of having me for 2 years... Get ready for high school, and become more responsible for your choices. You choose to break a rule, you're choosing to accept the consequences. If you do something right and something nice happens, you don't complain - so don't complain when you do something wrong and something bad happens. Take responsibility for your choices in life. Now, I teach high school. I don't tolerate kids swearing in the classroom (and have been trying not to tolerate it at the basketball practices I run), and I don't tolerate it in any of the sports I officiate. And I certainly don't tolerate it from adults. And I still push the responsibility thing - if more people did, we wouldn't need as many lawyers!

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Larks

I think you are way out numbered with this philosophy.

COMMON SENSE. Do you call traveling in 3rd grade games? I dont unless the kid carries it like a football. Yet there are travels EVERYWHERE in those games! OMG, I set aside a rule!! But if I didnt, we'd be there all day and no one would have any fun. What about incidental to moderate body contact on a shot in the paint? It is drilled into to us to have a patient whistle there to see if the shot goes or not. Missed shot....foul. Make....nothing. Isnt this in a way, setting aside a rule? Or is it GOOD JUDGEMENT?

My point is we adjust the rules to each game and situation all the time so the argument that we make em up as we go isnt very good relative to the profanity issue.

I agree with that - but I think the rules should be written to accommodate these changes as well - I had a parent complaining about moving screens a few weeks ago in a 3rd-4th grade girls game. I had a parent last Saturday complaining because we blanked out the 24-0 scoreboard in a 3rd-4th grade girls game and started over - she kept calling out the "real" score... "It's 50-2!!" and complaining about us doing that.

As for the second situation, I don't agree. If the shot goes and we don't have a foul, it takes out the "and 1" - and leaves a lot of things open to interpretation that shouldn't necessarily be. And if that was how it was supposed to be, they would say that in the rules - if the basket goes, ignore the foul.

I'm just saying they left way too much greyspace in the rules...that's all. It means the game can be completely different from one game to the next, from one set of refs to the next, etc. And this doesn't make sense to me - it never did. The game is the game - why should one rule be called/enforced in one game, and not in another (at the same level).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

No - but that doesn't change what is appropriate for a teacher to say. What is accepted (what would raise eyebrows, get someone fired, etc) may change from place to place, but in no case would it be consdered appropriate.

So what's the difference between "appropriate" and "accepted"? Seriously, what's the substantive difference.

There are places where calling the T in the OP will relegate you to JH games the rest of your career. That tells you that the coach's behavior is accepted and appropriate, and that the T would be inappropriate. I'm willing to accept there are high schools where this behavior wouldn't be appropriate; but I'm not willing, as a ref, to go out on a limb and make this call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

True - but certainly isn't going to get ignored either, as some people said they would do on the basketball court. And I would certainly not expect the administration to ignore a teacher who is using language or talking to kids the way it was described in the original post.

I do not think many people said anything about ignoring the comments. I think most people said this would not warrant a T. Also I think people are looking at the context in the original post.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Something is wrong with your phrase - But the language then NF use is going to change from one person to another and is going to change depending on who we work for - I don't know what you meant to say.

The NF, NCAA and I likely will assume the NBA does not use specific terms that are Ts no matter what. Even when the NF and NCAA talk about racial and gender comments, they never narrow it down to what they mean. Being a person of color I can tell you everything that would be offensive does not boil down to one or two words.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I would rather be in a world where the rules and expectations were spelled out clearly, and in general, people followed them. The "victim" mentality present in our world is based mostly on the greyspace I'm referring to. "Yeah, that's the rule, but I shouldn't have to follow it because...", or "Yeah, the coffee is hot, and I expected it to be hot, because I would have complained if you gave me lukewarm coffee, but because I spilled it on myself, I should be able to get money from you because you didn't TELL me in 5 different ways that it was hot." If the coach just took responsibility for his actions and choices (not using the language, or accepting the technical if he chooses to), things would be a lot smoother.

Huh?

Originally Posted by drinkeii

And yes, I know this isn't a perfect world. But I'll tell you what - when I taught middle school, I had 2 goals for the kids by the time they got out of having me for 2 years... Get ready for high school, and become more responsible for your choices. You choose to break a rule, you're choosing to accept the consequences. If you do something right and something nice happens, you don't complain - so don't complain when you do something wrong and something bad happens. Take responsibility for your choices in life. Now, I teach high school. I don't tolerate kids swearing in the classroom (and have been trying not to tolerate it at the basketball practices I run), and I don't tolerate it in any of the sports I officiate. And I certainly don't tolerate it from adults. And I still push the responsibility thing - if more people did, we wouldn't need as many lawyers!

Let us get back to what we are actually talking about. The use of "hell" is very likely not going to bring the same reaction in the classroom that you claim it is. If that was the case then I know a lot of teachers that would be fired. Remember we are not talking about the "F" word or other words that bring a strong reaction; we are talking about "hell."

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So what's the difference between "appropriate" and "accepted"? Seriously, what's the substantive difference.

There are places where calling the T in the OP will relegate you to JH games the rest of your career. That tells you that the coach's behavior is accepted and appropriate, and that the T would be inappropriate. I'm willing to accept there are high schools where this behavior wouldn't be appropriate; but I'm not willing, as a ref, to go out on a limb and make this call.

The difference is between what is correct (not using the language) - that would be Appropriate. Accepted, on the other hand, is what will be likely to be dealt with by authoritative figures.

For example - Driving several miles per hour over the speed limit is not appropriate, because it is against the law. In some places, like my city, it is accepted, and you are very unlikely to receive a ticket if you are only a few miles above the legal speed limit. In some cities, you get a ticket for 1 mile an hour above the posted limit, and therefore, most people tend to go at or below the speed limit.

I don't see how, under any circumstances, you can say a T is "inappropriate" if it is supported by the rules. I can see the consequences of calling it in the wrong place, causing a liklihood of being assigned to lower level games - but to say it was the wrong call, because it is supported by the rules, is, to me, incorrect.

One of the main reasons for having points of emphasis every year is to address concerns the rules committee has about some rules being blurred, ignored, not enforced, or not enforced consistently. If people just followed them, and enforced them consistently, instead of making many of the non-judgement calls in the rules into judgement calls, we probably wouldn't need to have POE's, or certainly not as many yearly.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let us get back to what we are actually talking about. The use of "hell" is very likely not going to bring the same reaction in the classroom that you claim it is. If that was the case then I know a lot of teachers that would be fired. Remember we are not talking about the "F" word or other words that bring a strong reaction; we are talking about "hell."

Peace

Several posters indicated they would "not hear" it (when the OP indicated it was clearly heard by both officials), or would choose not to address it.

I don't believe it is going to bring a HUGE reaction. However, it is going to being some reaction from most teachers, ranging from simply addressing the fact that it was inappropriate language, up to maybe a detention in some places. Some teachers would ignore it completely - i don't believe this is an appropriate response by a professional in that situation, but some will do it.

I do believe it has to be addressed - whether it is as a comment to the coach to watch his language, or maybe up to a T (which, as I said, even as rules oriented as I am, I would have trouble bringing myself to call without a former warning), it needs to be addressed in some manner. I would, as a parent, certainly not want some adult talking to my kid, even in high school, in this manner. I am expected not to talk to the students I teach in this manner.

But you are correct - other words should bring greater retribution. My standard is pretty clear - if I hear it, and i know where it came from, I will address it. If not, I have to simply tell the people in the area to watch their language.