Is this curse worthy of a "T"?

[Junker]

I've never liked the way that rule is written. What is profane and inappropriate can vary widely according to official's own beliefs. Obviously there are things we don't want to hear on the floor, but this can certainly be a grey area. I wouldn't even address a coach saying "what in the hell" to a player.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

The majority of people who responded to this said "no T" - the rules, and the philosophy of the game as defined by the NFHS, say "T".

Far too many officials I know make up things as they go along, and ignore rules or interpretations they disagree with. That was why I went through all of that.

The point I am making is you gave a lecture only to come to the same conclusion. No one here is "ignoring the rules." Everyone that responded was saying that this did not pass the smell test for them.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Junker

I've never liked the way that rule is written. What is profane and inappropriate can vary widely according to official's own beliefs. Obviously there are things we don't want to hear on the floor, but this can certainly be a grey area. I wouldn't even address a coach saying "what in the hell" to a player.

So you're saying this is appropriate for a teacher to say to a student? That is what the test should be, since the NFHS defines high school sports as an extention of the classroom.

[Larks]

I think a word you can hear on broadcast TV 24/7 is not worthy of a T. Thats MY judgment on the matter.

Look, we set aside rules all the time. How many ticky tack travels have all of us passed on in a 65-15 blowout? It happens all the time but the NFHS says we are to call traveling when a player picks up his pivot for example.

Its about COMMON SENSE if you ask me. If you go around calling every infraction in the book every time, you wont be reffing very long at any significant level.

It would be different if the coach used BS or F or GD or my favorite: FinGDBSCSSOB. None of those you hear on TV and all justify somewhere between a warning and a T if they are used loudly enough to be heard.

"Damn" and "Hell" arent on that list.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

So you're saying this is appropriate for a teacher to say to a student? That is what the test should be, since the NFHS defines high school sports as an extention of the classroom.

"Hell" is nothing. If you give out warnings for "hell", that's what your career will be.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Larks

but the NFHS says we are to call traveling when a player picks up his pivot.

Um. . .

[Larks]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Um. . .

And moves it!!!

Sorry

[iceman70]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

So you're saying this is appropriate for a teacher to say to a student? That is what the test should be, since the NFHS defines high school sports as an extention of the classroom.

Actually, I had teachers say much worse things to me. Appropriate? If you knew me in high school....

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Larks

I think a word you can hear on broadcast TV 24/7 is not worthy of a T. Thats MY judgment on the matter.

Look, we set aside rules all the time. How many ticky tack travels have all of us passed on in a 65-15 blowout? It happens all the time but the NFHS says we are to call traveling when a player picks up his pivot for example.

Its about COMMON SENSE if you ask me. If you go around calling every infraction in the book every time, you wont be reffing very long at any significant level.

It would be different if the coach used BS or F or GD or my favorite: FinGDBSCSSOB. None of those you hear on TV and all justify somewhere between a warning and a T if they are used loudly enough to be heard.

"Damn" and "Hell" arent on that list.

But no where does it say that network TV is the standard - the classroom is the standard, which brings me back to... is it appropriate for a teacher to say that to a student? If not, it isn't appropriate for a coach to say to a player. And if it isn't appropriate for a teacher to say it to a student quietly, neither should it be for a coach.

If we are basing our standards on television, something is wrong. We don't base our classroom standards on that, or there would be an awful lot that would be acceptable in the classroom that isn't.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by iceman70

Actually, I had teachers say much worse things to me. Appropriate? If you knew me in high school....

And that makes it appropriate? Not under any circumstances. Your teachers should be above reacting to any behavior in an inappropriate manner. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying just because it does happen doesn't mean it should, or that it is appropriate for teachers (or coaches) to do so.

[Scrapper1]

Did I miss the article in Rule 10 that sets out "Classroom Standards"? Is it defined in Rule 4? I don't see anything in the rules that says anything about that. Additionally, even if we do use "classroom standards", there are times when things are more relaxed in the classroom -- like after class, or an after school activity -- when it might not be inappropriate for a teacher to say "hell". "Good luck at State U, Johnny. It'll be a helluva lot more work, but I know you're up to the challenge." Ideal? Maybe not. But also not unreasonable or inappropriate, I don't think.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Did I miss the article in Rule 10 that sets out "Classroom Standards"? Is it defined in Rule 4? I don't see anything in the rules that says anything about that. Additionally, even if we do use "classroom standards", there are times when things are more relaxed in the classroom -- like after class, or an after school activity -- when it might not be inappropriate for a teacher to say "hell". "Good luck at State U, Johnny. It'll be a helluva lot more work, but I know you're up to the challenge." Ideal? Maybe not. But also not unreasonable or inappropriate, I don't think.

Again - I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I myself would never say something like that to the students. I would use heck. I would certainly never swear at a student or a player (on the teams that I coach/have coached). Would it be appropriate for an official to say that to a player? Of course not. It isn't appropriate for a coach to say it to a player. Whether we address it or not... that seems to be up to the individual official. Just like the call to not call a travel in a blowout against a team. I agree that it probably shouldn't be done. It falls under what everyone around here calls "Game Management". To me, "Game Management" is an excuse to ignore rules in favor of an official's personal opinion or judgement. Judgement comes in sometimes, but in general, if you are using it to ignore rules, something is wrong - I feel the judgement of the people who wrote the rules should take precidence.

If a coach swears in basketball, I'm very likely to T him up if I can hear it and I'm not standing in front of him. Same with soccer, except he will receive a card. He/she is an adult, and is expected to be in control of themselves, and to take responsibility for their choices or actions.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

But no where does it say that network TV is the standard - the classroom is the standard, which brings me back to... is it appropriate for a teacher to say that to a student? If not, it isn't appropriate for a coach to say to a player. And if it isn't appropriate for a teacher to say it to a student quietly, neither should it be for a coach.

If we are basing our standards on television, something is wrong. We don't base our classroom standards on that, or there would be an awful lot that would be acceptable in the classroom that isn't.

Where is this classroom standard that you claim is around?

Seriously, what the standard in one place is different in another. Depending on the teacher when I was coming up there were certain teachers that were a little loose with their words and others that were straight as a razor. Not everyone has this "classroom standard" that you keep talking about. And if there is a standard it surely changes based on where you are. I live in a metropolitan area where you can go 10 miles from one place to another the standards change drastically. There was a football coach this year was suspended for putting up a sign to motivate his players that had some Nazi overtones. When I heard the content of the sign it would not have raised an eyebrow at face value. The only way I knew it was offensive when someone told me the origin and the history. I say this because to a Jewish ref this might have offended them and to someone who is not Jewish would not have been noticed at all. And I think this is why the NF keeps the language vague and knows that what is appropriate is going to change from one place to another.

Peace

[Larks]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

And that makes it appropriate? Not under any circumstances. Your teachers should be above reacting to any behavior in an inappropriate manner. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying just because it does happen doesn't mean it should, or that it is appropriate for teachers (or coaches) to do so.

Do you think that it is an EXACT comparison to compare the emotion involved in a high school basketball game vs. the standards used to teach in a classroom environment? I dont think you can make that exact specific comparison in the real world. You are reading too much into it in my opinion.

I think it's not up to us to be the guys who try to uphold that level of standard in the gym. That is the principal, AD and school board's job. My job is to make sure profanity is not used during the game especially directed at me or opponents. If a coach wants to get in a kids grill and use hell and damn...maybe even GD, I will let his peers and supervisors make the decision if that type of language is appropriate or not. If s/he is using language that has become very common place in our society (hell and damn), I am leaving it alone. If he crosses the line and uses IN MY OPINION, words that are considerd profainty by a common sense standard, I'll deal with it with either warnings or Ts.

I believe if you go looking for trouble, you will find it and if you start tossing T's everytime you hear Damn or Hell, I submit you will A ) ruin those games and B ) wont be working at the high school level.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Where is this classroom standard that you claim is around?

Seriously, what the standard in one place is different in another. Depending on the teacher when I was coming up there were certain teachers that were a little loose with their words and others that were straight as a razor. Not everyone has this "classroom standard" that you keep talking about. And if there is a standard it surely changes based on where you are. I live in a metropolitan area where you can go 10 miles from one place to another the standards change drastically. There was a football coach this year was suspended for putting up a sign to motivate his players that had some Nazi overtones. When I heard the content of the sign it would not have raised an eyebrow at face value. The only way I knew it was offensive when someone told me the origin and the history. I say this because to a Jewish ref this might have offended them and to someone who is not Jewish would not have been noticed at all. And I think this is why the NF keeps the language vague and knows that what is appropriate is going to change from one place to another.

Peace

That classroom standard is what teachers are taught when they go to college. I don't believe you would find any teacher education program which teaches a teacher that it is appropriate for them to say that phrase used originally in the first post in this thread, regardless of where they are being taught, or where they are located. That is the standard that I am referring to.

Your example is a case of a hidden meaning - there is no hidden meaning in obscenity or profanity.