Is this curse worthy of a "T"?

[rockyroad]

Ok...lots of stuff on here about teachers, so a teacher will respond. Do I swear at my students - nope...never have, and hopefully never will. Do I conseider "hell" to be swearing - when it's used as anything other than a noun, yes. But I'm not sure what that has to do with calling a T in a game... in the OP, I would NOT have called a T, and doubt that I would have even said anything to the coach...that's between his players, their parents, the administration at his school, and the coach...

[Larks]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I don't see how, under any circumstances, you can say a T is "inappropriate" if it is supported by the rules. I can see the consequences of calling it in the wrong place, causing a liklihood of being assigned to lower level games - but to say it was the wrong call, because it is supported by the rules, is, to me, incorrect.

It may be incorrect BUT, 99.5% of officials out there know that if they call T's for the word "hell", it's a BAD IDEA! So what is the real debate here? Is it wrong for an adult to use any profanity towards a child? Yep. I still submit that this coach has plenty of eyes and ears on him and his actions are judged by the people that pay his salary. I am not going add myself to that group unless I think it will make that game better. A T for "hell" will wreck that game and likely my career in that league. Again - since we ALL know this.....WHAT ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT AGAIN?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I don't see how, under any circumstances, you can say a T is "inappropriate" if it is supported by the rules. I can see the consequences of calling it in the wrong place, causing a liklihood of being assigned to lower level games - but to say it was the wrong call, because it is supported by the rules, is, to me, incorrect.

One of the main reasons for having points of emphasis every year is to address concerns the rules committee has about some rules being blurred, ignored, not enforced, or not enforced consistently. If people just followed them, and enforced them consistently, instead of making many of the non-judgement calls in the rules into judgement calls, we probably wouldn't need to have POE's, or certainly not as many yearly.

I'd say the T would be inappropriate if it goes against accepted practice. IOW, if the original situation is considered okay in a given area, then giving a T for it is not appropriate.

By what standard do you claim it's always inappropriate to use the language, even if it's accepted in some places? Frankly, there are few words that I consider obscene or profane. Hell is not one. And to accept the use of "heck" in its place doesn't change anything; it certainly doesn't change the meaning.

I'm not talking about ignoring a blatant rule breakage. I hear the comment and determine it doesn't break the rules as I understand them. now, if he's directing it at me, such as "How in the hell could you not see that foul?" it's a different story. I'm not sure "hell" makes it any worse than "heck" would, either.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd say the T would be inappropriate if it goes against accepted practice. IOW, if the original situation is considered okay in a given area, then giving a T for it is not appropriate.

By what standard do you claim it's always inappropriate to use the language, even if it's accepted in some places? Frankly, there are few words that I consider obscene or profane. Hell is not one. And to accept the use of "heck" in its place doesn't change anything; it certainly doesn't change the meaning.

I'm not talking about ignoring a blatant rule breakage. I hear the comment and determine it doesn't break the rules as I understand them. now, if he's directing it at me, such as "How in the hell could you not see that foul?" it's a different story. I'm not sure "hell" makes it any worse than "heck" would, either.

So you're holding the coach to a higher standard in addressing you than in addressing a child/player? I would hope they have a higher standard the other way - I expect respect, but adult to adult, I expect to take a little more than I would expect them to give to kids.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Larks

It may be incorrect BUT, 99.5% of officials out there know that if they call T's for the word "hell", it's a BAD IDEA! So what is the real debate here? Is it wrong for an adult to use any profanity towards a child? Yep. I still submit that this coach has plenty of eyes and ears on him and his actions are judged by the people that pay his salary. I am not going add myself to that group unless I think it will make that game better. A T for "hell" will wreck that game and likely my career in that league. Again - since we ALL know this.....WHAT ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT AGAIN?

So that would mean that someone like Bobby Knight would have been fired YEARS ago, rather than being allowed to build up to the way he has behaved in the last couple of years. But because many people consider winning to be more important than developing character and behaving appropriately (since winning brings in $$, and of course that is the most important thing in everything, isn't it? (insert strong intent of sarcasm here)), that is the way things go.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

So that would mean that someone like Bobby Knight would have been fired YEARS ago, rather than being allowed to build up to the way he has behaved in the last couple of years. But because many people consider winning to be more important than developing character and behaving appropriately (since winning brings in $$, and of course that is the most important thing in everything, isn't it? (insert strong intent of sarcasm here)), that is the way things go.

You can't equate what we do as high school officials to what happens in a college game. I've heard coaches in some of my college games rant and rave at their players using profanity for every other word. At that level, as long as it's not directed at me, I'm not addressing it. You have to address this issue how your assignor wants it done. If I go out and T up a coach for hell, I'm not working for any of my current assignors for much longer.

[Larks]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

So that would mean that someone like Bobby Knight would have been fired YEARS ago, rather than being allowed to build up to the way he has behaved in the last couple of years. But because many people consider winning to be more important than developing character and behaving appropriately (since winning brings in $$, and of course that is the most important thing in everything, isn't it? (insert strong intent of sarcasm here)), that is the way things go.

You are confusing our jobs with the jobs of school administrators.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Larks

It may be incorrect BUT, 99.5% of officials out there know that if they call T's for the word "hell", it's a BAD IDEA! So what is the real debate here? Is it wrong for an adult to use any profanity towards a child? Yep. I still submit that this coach has plenty of eyes and ears on him and his actions are judged by the people that pay his salary. I am not going add myself to that group unless I think it will make that game better. A T for "hell" will wreck that game and likely my career in that league. Again - since we ALL know this.....WHAT ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT AGAIN?

Larks,

You are exactly correct. None of us have to work with David, so it really does not matter what he thinks should be called.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Junker

You can't equate what we do as high school officials to what happens in a college game. I've heard coaches in some of my college games rant and rave at their players using profanity for every other word. At that level, as long as it's not directed at me, I'm not addressing it. You have to address this issue how your assignor wants it done. If I go out and T up a coach for hell, I'm not working for any of my current assignors for much longer.

But if you look at any of the college websites (I went wandering through a few), many use the phrase "Extension of the classroom..." - so in theory, they support this. But as I said, I'm referring to HS and below.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Larks

You are confusing our jobs with the jobs of school administrators.

Not at all - if that was true, then profanity would not be a POE every couple of years. If the administrators were supposed to deal with that only, then why would it even be a rule - they could enforce it without a rule in the game if they didn't like it. They don't need a "game rule" to deal with it.

[Eastshire]

I file hell as a swear word under "Fight the battles you can win." Is it appropriate? No. Will I get anywhere by calling it? No. Save your ammunition for when you can make it count. Hell as a swear word is simple not a place to make a stand.

You will have a hard time making even harder words like (female dog) stick as a swear word. Fight the battles you can win.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Larks,

You are exactly correct. None of us have to work with David, so it really does not matter what he thinks should be called.

Peace

Now you're just backing off, like in the Mechanics thread (you brought it up) to "do whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway". And which I specifically said, in the other thread (again, you brought up the other thread), that that wasn't a legitimate response.

We had a guest lecturer at our opening officials/coachs meeting this year. His speech, for a half hour or so, focussed on the falling apart of our game. When we need to have games played at 4 in the afternoon in some cities, so they don't have spectators show up to cause problems...when you have to have games stopped and replayed because of officials feeling there was one fan that made one racial slur against them... when you have the NFHS picking sportsmanship as a POE almost every year... when I have a coach I watch chew out his team for, literally, 15 minutes, flinging profanity at the kids left and right, with younger kids around well within hearing distance, with parents watching and well within hearing distance, AFTER A SUMMER LEAGUE GAME... these all lead toward our game falling apart.

If we choose to sit back, and watch these things occur, and do nothing to #1 prevent them, and #2 address them when they do occur, we're not going to have a game to officiate anymore. Yes, using the OP word isn't going to cause the game to collapse. But our unwillingness to address similar issues - our "not hearing" things we don't want to address or have to deal with, etc... is heading down a slippery slope that will damage the game, and sports in general, in the long term. You will say "one word, no big deal" - fine - one word leads to another and another, and the line gets blurrier and blurrier... and eventually, there is no line anymore.

Bottom line - if you wouldn't tolerate a coach saying it to you, why would you tolerate a coach addressing his players that way? Would you tolerate him addressing the scorekeeper that way? How about the timer? How about the ball-boy? How about the janitor during the intermission? How about a parent during halftime or during the game in the crowd behind him? Where do we draw the line? The behavior is unacceptable, and needs to be addressed in some way. Whether with a T or a warning - not addressing it simply allows them to get away with things, which build to larger things, which damages the game.

Again - why would they make sportsmanship, of which the language issue is a part, a POE almost every year in most sports, if it wasn't important?!?

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I file hell as a swear word under "Fight the battles you can win." Is it appropriate? No. Will I get anywhere by calling it? No. Save your ammunition for when you can make it count. Hell as a swear word is simple not a place to make a stand.

You will have a hard time making even harder words like (female dog) stick as a swear word. Fight the battles you can win.

I have always looked at it, as in the black-and-white thing, as "I'm going to win anyway" - what I decide is what sticks. If I T up a coach, he can't appeal it. He can complain, and if I do it in a wrong way several times, I might not get games again in that area/league/etc. But in the end, he doesn't get to make the decision - I do. I would have no trouble getting either of them to stick. And I would rather choose the right thing to do, rather than the thing that is the easiest.

I had a player in soccer that I yellow carded for yelling "Jesus Christ" after missing a goal. The coach complained. I asked over a dozen soccer officials in the next several weeks, and they all agreed it was the right decision - so did our board when I asked them. The coach's theory was that it wasn't offensive to everyone - I said "had he screamed Allah, I wouldn't have taken offense at it - but I would have carded him the same, had he said it the same way, because it is inappropriate for a high school player to say that kind of thing".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Now you're just backing off, like in the Mechanics thread (you brought it up) to "do whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway". And which I specifically said, in the other thread (again, you brought up the other thread), that that wasn't a legitimate response.

There is no reason to keep debating this with you when you have it all figured out. People have been telling you over and over again like the other post what to do and they are much more experienced by all accounts. Also there are people that I personally have had many disagreements telling you that you are flat out wrong. If you feel you are right there is a reason why some officials get better shots than others. I know that might not seem nice, but it is the truth. And many here are saying their careers would be greatly affected by calling a T in this situation. I know mine would be affected.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

We had a guest lecturer at our opening officials/coachs meeting this year. His speech, for a half hour or so, focussed on the falling apart of our game. When we need to have games played at 4 in the afternoon in some cities, so they don't have spectators show up to cause problems...when you have to have games stopped and replayed because of officials feeling there was one fan that made one racial slur against them... when you have the NFHS picking sportsmanship as a POE almost every year... when I have a coach I watch chew out his team for, literally, 15 minutes, flinging profanity at the kids left and right, with younger kids around well within hearing distance, with parents watching and well within hearing distance, AFTER A SUMMER LEAGUE GAME... these all lead toward our game falling apart.

You can give all the examples you like, it is not going to change my opinion about this.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

If we choose to sit back, and watch these things occur, and do nothing to #1 prevent them, and #2 address them when they do occur, we're not going to have a game to officiate anymore. Yes, using the OP word isn't going to cause the game to collapse. But our unwillingness to address similar issues - our "not hearing" things we don't want to address or have to deal with, etc... is heading down a slippery slope that will damage the game, and sports in general, in the long term. You will say "one word, no big deal" - fine - one word leads to another and another, and the line gets blurrier and blurrier... and eventually, there is no line anymore.

Once again, there are things bigger than what the NF wants. If the NF wants specific language to be penalized at all times, they can put that in the rulebooks and we would have no choice. The NF is very vague just like the NCAA to allow for these types of judgments to be made. If you have a problem, you know who to contact to make that change. I doubt it will go far, but this is something you can try.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Bottom line - if you wouldn't tolerate a coach saying it to you, why would you tolerate a coach addressing his players that way? Would you tolerate him addressing the scorekeeper that way? How about the timer? How about the ball-boy? How about the janitor during the intermission? How about a parent during halftime or during the game in the crowd behind him? Where do we draw the line? The behavior is unacceptable, and needs to be addressed in some way. Whether with a T or a warning - not addressing it simply allows them to get away with things, which build to larger things, which damages the game.

Conduct ultimately is up to the administration that hires them. Also, the timer and scorer might have words back. I do not know about you, but I am not standing right next to the timer and scorer. The only ball-boy I have ever seen in sports is in football. And during intermission I have no idea where the janitor is most of the time. And also it is not for me to know of every interaction a coach or player has with everyone in the gym. All we can take care of as officials is what we see and hear. My priority is not listening to coaches and their interactions with players and fans unless it happens during actual play.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Again - why would they make sportsmanship, of which the language issue is a part, a POE almost every year in most sports, if it wasn't important?!?

Sportsmanship is not always about language. Sportsmanship is also about non-verbal communication and it also has very little to do with what is stated by the POEs. I was raised by parents that expect a certain level of respect that I would never penalize a kid for.

David, the NF does not hire anyone here. The NF does not fire anyone here. I will leave the conversation with that nugget. I will let you figure out what role that plays in this conversation.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Larks

And moves it!!!

Moving the pivot foot after you pick it up is legal. That's called the HokeyPokey. You can't put your HokeyPokey foot back down on the floor though. That is illegal.

And that's my contribution to this stoopid f**king thread.