New Substitution Question

[Scrapper1]

The discussion of the NCAA rule for subbing made me look real hard at 3-4-12. Here's the whole article:

A player who has been withdrawn or replaced by a substitute may re-enter the game at the next opportunity to substitute, provided that the game clock has been properly started with his or her replacement in the game.

Now, what happens if the game clock never starts while his or her replacement is in the game? Let's take the exact scenario from the other thread. Technical foul on B1. A6 enters the game to shoot the free throws, replacing A1. After the second free throw, A7 enters the game, replacing A6. Now the ball is inbounded, the clock runs and the ball is deflected out of bounds. A1 is at the table to re-enter the game. But the clock never ran while A1's replacement was in the game.

OBVIOUSLY, we're going to let A1 back in the game. So then what's the point of saying "provided that the game clock has been properly started with his or her replacement in the game"?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The discussion of the NCAA rule for subbing made me look real hard at 3-4-12. Here's the whole article:

Now, what happens if the game clock never starts while his or her replacement is in the game? Let's take the exact scenario from the other thread. Technical foul on B1. A6 enters the game to shoot the free throws, replacing A1. After the second free throw, A7 enters the game, replacing A6. Now the ball is inbounded, the clock runs and the ball is deflected out of bounds. A1 is at the table to re-enter the game. But the clock never ran while A1's replacement was in the game.

OBVIOUSLY, we're going to let A1 back in the game. So then what's the point of saying "provided that the game clock has been properly started with his or her replacement in the game"?

If A6 was replaced with A7 before any time ran off the clock, then A7 is considered the replacement for A1. Go a step farther and after A7 comes in the A team coach calls a time out. Before the first horn he replaces A7 with A8. A8 then would be considered the replacement for A1.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If A6 was replaced with A7 before any time ran off the clock, then A7 is considered the replacement for A1. Go a step farther and after A7 comes in the A team coach calls a time out. Before the first horn he replaces A7 with A8. A8 then would be considered the replacement for A1.

Any rule basis for that assumption? I don't see any.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Any rule basis for that assumption? I don't see any.

The rule basis that I'm looking @ probally the same your looking @...Rule 3-4 art.12, 13 & A.R.57.

This is the only way it could be otherwise A1 wouldn't be allowed to re enter unless the coach puts A6 back in for one play.

The replacement for the player that goes out is the replacement that is in the game after the clock starts regardless if that intial sub was changed or not.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

This is the only way it could be otherwise A1 wouldn't be allowed to re enter unless the coach puts A6 back in for one play.

Exactly my point!! The way the rule is written says that A1 can't come back in unless/until A6 is actually in the game while the clock is running.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Exactly my point!! The way the rule is written says that A1 can't come back in unless/until A6 is actually in the game while the clock is running.

I don't read it that way....The rule says their replacement. A1's replacement is the sub that actually is in the game for A1 when the clock starts. That could be A7, A8 or A9. It couldn't possibly be any other way.

If it could then AR 57 wouldn't be in the book.

[Raymond]

Could a Holy Batman!!! post be far behind?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

OBVIOUSLY, we're going to let A1 back in the game. So then what's the point of saying "provided that the game clock has been properly started with his or her replacement in the game"?

It's just to be sure that the clock runs before A1 returns. You're being overly analytical and literal to try to track whether A6 was in the game when the clock ran.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's just to be sure that the clock runs before A1 returns. You're being overly analytical and literal to try to track whether A6 was in the game when the clock ran.

I know. So why is the phrase in the article in the first place? Just say that the clock has to properly run before A1 can re-enter. Why bother to include language about the replacement?

The NFHS book says "after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement". That says exactly what we want it to say (SURPRISE!!) and doesn't mention the person who replaced A1.

REPEAL NCAA 3-4-12!!

Nah, just fix the wording.

[SmokeEater]

Your right, its all in the way its worded, the meaning is the same.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The NFHS book says "after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement". That says exactly what we want it to say (SURPRISE!!) and doesn't mention the person who replaced A1.

REPEAL NCAA 3-4-12!!

Nah, just fix the wording.

The "replacement" doesn't mean the exact number that came in. It is the player (replacement) that fills the injured players spot. Again, that could be anybody that comes in off the bench to replace A6. If A6 is replaced before the clock starts then whoever comes in for A6 is the replacement for A1.

It's not that hard to figure out. You can't read to much into the word "replacement," The rule didn't say the number the replacement, it just says replacement.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If A6 is replaced before the clock starts then whoever comes in for A6 is the replacement for A1.

Got a citation for that? A definition of "replacement" in Rule 4? I don't see one.

You can't read to much into the word "replacement," The rule didn't say the number the replacement, it just says replacement.

I don't think I'm reading anything into the word "replacement", except its everyday common-sense definition. If I replace you, I'm your replacement. If Nevadaref replaces me, he's my replacement; not yours. Just ask yourself, "Who did he come in for?" Nevadaref didn't come in for you.

I don't think I'm over-analyzing anything. I'm just reading it. I just think the rule is worded VERY badly.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think I'm over-analyzing anything. I'm just reading it. I just think the rule is worded VERY badly.

I agree with Scrapper, the wording is not very good and the spirit of the rule could easily be misconstrued by less savvy than those of us who reside on the board.

[Gimlet25id]

I suppose this could be written better. However I've never had a problem with it the way it is now. If it had to be the exact # that came in then AR 57 wouldn't be in the book.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I suppose this could be written better. However I've never had a problem with it the way it is now. If it had to be the exact # that came in then AR 57 wouldn't be in the book.

Huh? AR 57 deals with a player coming in to shoot the free throws and then subbing out before the clock starts.

We're talking about a player subbing out and then coming back in before the clock starts. Apples and rutebegas.