Substitution Question

[Rickref]

After the 10 minute mark has passed in pregame warmups a player on Team A recieves a technical foul for dunking in pregame. Team B wants B6 a nonstarter to shoot the free throws which is legal. The question is who now starts the game. Does the player B6 subbed in for have to wait for the one tick of the clock or is he allowed to start. References.

[Camron Rust]

You pretty much nailed it... When the FT is taken, the game has started. B6 is in the game and Bx that came out can only come in after time has run off the clock.

3-3
ART. 4 . . . A player who has been withdrawn or directed to leave the game for injury, or for illegal equipment or apparel, etc., shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement.

The only alternative is for the coach of Team B to make a change to his designated starters. Doing so would incur a T and would pretty much be useless (unless Team B had already made a change after the 10 minute mark.)

[Grail]

3-3
ART. 4 . . . A player who has been withdrawn or directed to leave the game for injury, or for illegal equipment or apparel, etc., shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement

Unless I'm reading the above incorrectly, this rule does not apply to the situation. The player was not withdrawn due to an injury, nor illegal equipment, etc. The player was replaced in a legal substitution. I believe the game is now live and any substitution before the ball is made live for the inbound is allowed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Grail
3-3
ART. 4 . . . A player who has been withdrawn or directed to leave the game for injury, or for illegal equipment or apparel, etc., shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement

Unless I'm reading the above incorrectly, this rule does not apply to the situation. The player was not withdrawn due to an injury, nor illegal equipment, etc. The player was replaced in a legal substitution. I believe the game is now live and any substitution before the ball is made live for the inbound is allowed.

Are you reading from a 2001/2002 rulebook, or older? The language of R3-3-4 has been changed to "A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game....". Injuries are now dealt with in R3-3-5.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Grail
3-3
ART. 4 . . . A player who has been withdrawn or directed to leave the game for injury, or for illegal equipment or apparel, etc., shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement

Unless I'm reading the above incorrectly, this rule does not apply to the situation. The player was not withdrawn due to an injury, nor illegal equipment, etc. The player was replaced in a legal substitution. I believe the game is now live and any substitution before the ball is made live for the inbound is allowed.

You're joining the two clauses incorrectly. There are two cases:

1. has been withdrawn

OR

2. directed to leave the game for....

The reasons never matter. Any player who leaves the game for any reason may not return until after the clock has run.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Rickref
After the 10 minute mark has passed in pregame warmups a player on Team A recieves a technical foul for dunking in pregame. Team B wants B6 a nonstarter to shoot the free throws which is legal. The question is who now starts the game. Does the player B6 subbed in for have to wait for the one tick of the clock or is he allowed to start. References.

Rick,
I had this come up before and did a bit of research on it to learn what is the correct procedure. The key statement is in the Simplified and Illustrated book.

Here is the NFHS way with rule references:

The technical foul for the pregame dunk is a charged to the PLAYER who dunked, indirectly to the Head Coach, who loses his coaching box, and also counts as a team foul toward the bonus. (10-3-4 plus chart of page 76, and the Note to 1-13-2 in the Penalty section of 10-5) Let's call the player who dunked A1.
Now rule 3-2-2a specifically allows Team B to change a designated starter after the 10 minute mark without receiving a team technical foul in order to attempt a technical-foul free throw. So B6 is swapped for B2 in the starting line up.
Now we wait around for the remaining warm-up time to expire and then start the game with 2 FTs for Team B due to A1's pregame dunk T. The first or second FT must be attempted by B6, otherwise Team B will receive a T for illegally changing their starting line-up. For simplicity, let's say that he shoots both, even though he really doesn't have to.
Since the game and the first quarter start when the ball first becomes live (5-5-6), the game actually starts when the ball is placed at the disposal of the technical foul shooter, B6 in this case, for the first attempt. (6-1-2c) Since this is the start of the game all ten designated starters need to be on the court at this time.
If nothing else goofy happens, Team B is given the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's table following the 2 FTs. The initial direction of the arrow is set towards Team A's basket when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower. (4-3-3b, plus Simplified and Illustrated page 22 top picture)
Now the question about when can the originally designated starter B2 enter the game is answered clearly and precisely by the Simplified and Illustrated book on the top of page 55. This play-pic specifically covers the pregame dunk T, with the changing of a designated starter to shoot the FTs. It references 8-3, which is a bit odd. Yet what's most important here is that the last sentence under the pictures says, "The replaced starter may not return until after the clock has run following the last free throw."

So now we know how the NFHS wants it done. However, I will add that I believe their interpretation of this situation is incorrect based upon what is written in the RULES BOOK. I wrote a lengthly post on this forum stating this a while back. In short, I contend that B2 has never participated in the game (never been a player by the definition in 4-34-1) and therefore should not be subject to the restriction of 3-3-4. He was not substitued for, he was not replaced as a player, nor was he directed to leave the game.
To me changing a designated starter BEFORE THE GAME STARTS and replacing a player who is actually in the game are two very different things.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

Rick,
I had this come up before and did a bit of research on it to learn what is the correct procedure. The key statement is in the Simplified and Illustrated book.

Here is the NFHS way with rule references:

The technical foul for the pregame dunk is a charged to the PLAYER who dunked, indirectly to the Head Coach, who loses his coaching box, and also counts as a team foul toward the bonus. (10-3-4 plus chart of page 76, and the Note to 1-13-2 in the Penalty section of 10-5) Let's call the player who dunked A1.
Now rule 3-2-2a specifically allows Team B to change a designated starter after the 10 minute mark without receiving a team technical foul in order to attempt a technical-foul free throw. So B6 is swapped for B2 in the starting line up.
Now we wait around for the remaining warm-up time to expire and then start the game with 2 FTs for Team B due to A1's pregame dunk T. The first or second FT must be attempted by B6, otherwise Team B will receive a T for illegally changing their starting line-up. For simplicity, let's say that he shoots both, even though he really doesn't have to.
Since the game and the first quarter start when the ball first becomes live (5-5-6), the game actually starts when the ball is placed at the disposal of the technical foul shooter, B6 in this case, for the first attempt. (6-1-2c) Since this is the start of the game all ten designated starters need to be on the court at this time.
If nothing else goofy happens, Team B is given the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's table following the 2 FTs. The initial direction of the arrow is set towards Team A's basket when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower. (4-3-3b, plus Simplified and Illustrated page 22 top picture)
Now the question about when can the originally designated starter B2 enter the game is answered clearly and precisely by the Simplified and Illustrated book on the top of page 55. This play-pic specifically covers the pregame dunk T, with the changing of a designated starter to shoot the FTs. It references 8-3, which is a bit odd. Yet what's most important here is that the last sentence under the pictures says, "The replaced starter may not return until after the clock has run following the last free throw."

So now we know how the NFHS wants it done. However, I will add that I believe their interpretation of this situation is incorrect based upon what is written in the RULES BOOK. I wrote a lengthly post on this forum stating this a while back. In short, I contend that B2 has never participated in the game (never been a player by the definition in 4-34-1) and therefore should not be subject to the restriction of 3-3-4. He was not substitued for, he was not replaced as a player, nor was he directed to leave the game.
To me changing a designated starter BEFORE THE GAME STARTS and replacing a player who is actually in the game are two very different things.

[/B][/QUOTE]Congratulations, Nevada. You MTD Sr-ed that one.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Congratulations, Nevada. You MTD Sr-ed that one.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

What??!! Did I miss something!!

[Rickref]

Nevada,
Thanks for the thorough reply. I guess you researched it. I tend to agree with your point that the player was not in the game so should not be subjected to rule involving their re-entry. Had a point well made by a veteran official the other night. As officials we need to be more concerned with who is leaving the game as opposed to who is entering the game so we are aware of re-entry situations. Thanks again.

[tjchamp]

Nevada,

I'm not sure I follow your argument. The coach made a decision to legally change a designated starter. He wasn't forced to make the change. When the original starter was benched in favor of the person the coach selected to shoot the free throw, he became bench personnel, like any other non starter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by tjchamp
Nevada,

I'm not sure I follow your argument. The coach made a decision to legally change a designated starter. He wasn't forced to make the change. When the original starter was benched in favor of the person the coach selected to shoot the free throw, he became bench personnel, like any other non starter.

A few years back the NFHS and NCAA clarified a ruling with regard to who can shoot the free throws that result from a technical foul that occurs prior to the "actual" start of the game. The rules clarification did not change the rule or any existing casebook plays. The correct way to handle the situation has been the same for well over 40 years.

I do not have my rules books in front of me (there still up there Chuck, LOL), so I cannot give exact rules references:

The rules that states that any player(s) including incoming subsitute(s) can shoot the free throws that result from a technical foul. (The NCAA states that the same player must shoot both free throws for a given technical foul, while each of the two free throws for a given technical foul can be shot by different players.)

The rules also state that a team cannot change its starting line-up with incurring a technical foul, unless the starter is being replaced due to injury, illness, or disqualification.

But the rule regarding who can shoot a free throw for a technical foul trumps the rule regarding changing the starting line-up for the following reason:

Under "normal" circumstances a game starts with a jump ball at the center circle. When a technical foul has occured prior to the jump ball, the game is to considered to have started with the action that was deemed a technical foul, therefore the game has already started even if the free throws for the technical foul are not shot until game time and thus anybody including incoming substitutes can shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul.

The starter(s) that were replaced cannot return to the game until the first opportunity to subsitutle after the clock has started.

MTD, Sr.

[Lotto]

B7 can substitute for B6 before the throw-in following the FTs.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


When a technical foul has occured prior to the jump ball, the game is to considered to have started with the action that was deemed a technical foul, therefore the game has already started...

MTD,
I would very much like to see something written down that says this. I do not believe that this is correct. Until proven otherwise, I will maintain that the game/1st Quarter begins when the ball first becomes live for the technical FTs as stated in 5-5-6.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...thus anybody including incoming substitutes can shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul.

Of course, if I am right about when the game begins then there can't be any incoming substitutes because there aren't any players to replace.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by tjchamp
Nevada,

I'm not sure I follow your argument. The coach made a decision to legally change a designated starter. He wasn't forced to make the change. When the original starter was benched in favor of the person the coach selected to shoot the free throw, he became bench personnel, like any other non starter.

Agreed. So just like any other team member who is bench personnel, he should be able to enter the game following the FTs (or after the first FT to be precise) in my opinion. Just because his name was originally listed as a starter, I don't think that he should be treated differently than the others sitting on the bench who also haven't played yet. I don't think the NFHS got the interp right on this one.