Substitution Question?

[Indy_Ref]

End of 3rd quarter, after the buzzer...A1 gets a technical foul for taunting. We start the 4th quarter with B shooting 2 FT's & getting the ball OOB at halfcourt. (Of course, the arrow is pointing to B...so we make sure that the bench does NOT change the arrow after B completes the throw-in since B is getting the ball because of the technical foul and not because of the arrow.) While I am administering the 2 FT's, a substitute reports for A1. He was NOT there at the 15-second buzzer to start the 4th quarter. Before I could say anything, partner brings A6 in for A1. Although I don't agree, I let it go so as not to show him up...or to embarrass myself in case he CAN come in legally. Plus, it was a 20-point blowout...so no one really cared.

Question: Can A6 enter in this situation? I say "NO" because he was not there by the 15-second buzzer to start the quarter...and a sub, who has not reported in time, cannot enter unless time has come off the clock or unless team A calls a timeout. I have looked over the substitution rule and still believe that A6 cannot come in.

Please advise!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Question: Can A6 enter in this situation? I say "NO" because he was not there by the 15-second buzzer to start the quarter...and a sub, who has not reported in time, cannot enter unless time has come off the clock or unless team A calls a timeout.

The sub can't enter until "The next opportunity to substitute" (or something like that). There's no requirement for the clock to run (unless A6 had just been removed from the game).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref

Question: Can A6 enter in this situation? I say "NO" because he was not there by the 15-second buzzer to start the quarter...and a sub, who has not reported in time, cannot enter unless time has come off the clock or unless team A calls a timeout. I have looked over the substitution rule and still believe that A6 cannot come in.

The FT's are part of the 4th quarter- i.e. it's no longer between quarters. The sub can legally come in after the either the first or second FT, as per rule 3-3-1(c).

[Nevadaref]

By the book:
Since the 4th quarter starts when the ball becomes live on the first free throw attempt, you would hold him until after the first free throw is attempted.

In practice:
The player going out just got a T for taunting, and if a coach is going to help me out by taking this hot head out of the game and controlling him. I'm going to let him!


PS By the book: The T is also charged indirectly to the head coach because the kid was bench personnel during the intermission between quarters when he was charged with the T. But again look at the actions of the coach. Is he being helpful? Maybe pass on this and no one will know.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Feb 25th, 2004 at 09:05 AM]

[lpneck]

Indy_Ref...

I think your head cold may be interfering with your recollection of the series of events...

A6 reported to the table as the intermission was ending and was NOT allowed to enter, because he did not beat the first horn. You administered the first FT, at which point your partner rightfully brought the substitute in because the ball had become live during the first FT, and was now dead before the second FT.

Nevadaref...

Why would you consider the player bench personnel? He has not been substituted for at this point and is still a legal player, even if it is during an intermission. I think it is different than a DQ'd player situation.

[footlocker]

Nevada,

Good call. I originally questioned this, but you are right. It does say that all team members are bench personnel during intermission.

I had to look it up. Lpneck, check casebook 10.4.1 sit B. Also rule 5.5.1 will clear up definitions of intermission.

[ChuckElias]

Here's the case:

10.4.1 SITUATION B: At halftime, as the teams, coaches, and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member verbally abuses one of the officials. RULING: A technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach. During intermission all team members are bench personnel and are penalized accordingly. If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified.

That's for FED. Interesting, but I can't find anything in the NCAA book that addresses this. I would have to say that for NCAA, you wouldn't assess this indirectly to the coach. (There is a case -- AR 4, pg. 127 -- in which a player dunks 3 times in pre-game. The player is ejected, but there's no mention of penalty to the coach.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by footlocker
Nevada,

Good call. I originally questioned this, but you are right. It does say that all team members are bench personnel during intermission.

I had to look it up. Lpneck, check casebook 10.4.1 sit B. Also rule 5.5.1 will clear up definitions of intermission.

One further point on intermissions. As per R2-12-3&4, the intermission is the period when the timer is actually timing it. If the player T happens before the timer started timing the intermission, there's no indirect T charged to the head coach.

[footlocker]

chuck & JR,

Beat you.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by footlocker
chuck & JR,

Beat you.

Yeah, but I posted the whole case. And as I'm sure Mrs. Footlocker has told you, faster is not always better

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

And as I'm sure Mrs. Footlocker has told you, faster is not always better

Yes, she has. Several times.

My deepest apologies, Footlocker. Just don't know what comes over me sometimes. I usually blame Chuck, though, if that's any help.

[footlocker]

Well Chuck, kudos for your typing skills. And for the record Mrs. Footlocker was amused.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by lpneck
Indy_Ref...

I think your head cold may be interfering with your recollection of the series of events...

A6 reported to the table as the intermission was ending and was NOT allowed to enter, because he did not beat the first horn. You administered the first FT, at which point your partner rightfully brought the substitute in because the ball had become live during the first FT, and was now dead before the second FT.

LP,

I do have the events correct...whether I have a head cold or not. I just didn't explicitly say I administered the first FT in the original post. I didn't think that point was such a big deal. The point I was trying to ask about was the substitute...whether or not time had to run off the clock BEFORE A6 could come in. I was confusing the issue that time had to come off the clock in order for A1 to return for any player on team A with when A6 could actually enter the game.

With all the T's we have in our games, I'll be an "old pro" when it comes time to figure out what to do after them!!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, she has. Several times.

My deepest apologies, Footlocker. Just don't know what comes over me sometimes. I usually blame Chuck, though, if that's any help.

Footlocker --- GREAT JOB!! Definitely the post of the week!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by footlocker
Well Chuck, kudos for your typing skills.

Cut and paste, baby. Cut and paste!

And for the record Mrs. Footlocker was amused.

Again, not always a good thing. . .