Substitution question

[swordfish]

Team B lines up on a normal scrimmage play with 12 men on the field. A team B player realises this late, and runs off the field before the ball is snapped. However, he runs to the Team A sideline, as it is closer. Would there be an Illegal Substitution call on this play? When would the flag be thrown, and when would the whistle be blown?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by swordfish
Team B lines up on a normal scrimmage play with 12 men on the field. A team B player realises this late, and runs off the field before the ball is snapped. However, he runs to the Team A sideline, as it is closer. Would there be an Illegal Substitution call on this play? When would the flag be thrown, and when would the whistle be blown?

REPLY: First off, if there are 12 on the field in a formation/huddle, it probably means that the replaced B player did not leave the field "immediately" (Fed) or "within three seconds" (NCAA). The BJ should have recognized this and flagged it before it gets to the point where "...the B player realizes this late." Both codes see this as a dead ball substitution foul. Don't allow the play to go off. (5 yards from the succeeding spot) References: NCAA 3-5-2c, NF 3-7-2.

Now let's suppose that the substitute comes in late and the replaced player leaves immediately, but to his opponents' sideline. Again, in both codes, this is a dead ball substitution foul, 5 yards from the succeeding spot. Don't let the play go off. References: NCAA 3-5-2c, NF 3-7-3.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by swordfish
Team B lines up on a normal scrimmage play with 12 men on the field. A team B player realises this late, and runs off the field before the ball is snapped. However, he runs to the Team A sideline, as it is closer. Would there be an Illegal Substitution call on this play? When would the flag be thrown, and when would the whistle be blown?

The way we do it on our crew (NF) our BJ will throw the flag when team A breaks the huddle,and approches the LOS. We do this because the rule is that deception is the key to this foul. I know it say the player must leave immediatly (or we know upto 3 seconds). But when the QB comes to the line and sees 12 players, someone is there that should not be. Weather it is intentional or not, that is our minds is deception. So, play will not go off: 5 yd Ill Sub, and we continue the game. Some will argue that this does not give team B a chance to run some one off or allow them to get the biggie 15 if 12 are still on the field. But we feel that we will not give team A the biggie unless some real deception is being used. We will flag team A if all 12 come toward the LOS out of the huddle.

This is how we do it and we have avioded a lot of trouble. Even had an offending coach tell us thanks (the coaching staff had not realized the 12 and was not yelling for someone to get off).