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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 08:30am
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Wrong player correctable error

Ok, here's a sitch. Both teams are in the bonus. B1 fouls A1. The officials mistakenly allow A2 to shoot the one-and-one. During A2's first FT, A3 fouls B3. The FT is successful. The officials correctly rule a false double foul and clear the lane for A2's second FT. A2's second attempt is also successful.

Officials then have B3 shoot his one-and-one at the other basket. B3's FTs are both successful. A2 inbounds the ball to A1, but A1 fumbles it and the ball goes OOB.

At this point, (before the ball becomes live for Team B's throw-in) Coach B notifies the officials that A1 should've shot the original one-and-one. Officials correctly rule that the error can still be corrected.

Exactly what do you do to correct this error?
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 08:45am
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Cancel A2 free throws and have A1 shoot a 1 and 1 withthe lane cleared. Then ball put back into play where B was to get it after the OOB. It won't make A coach or fans very happy but thats the correct way to administer the correction I believe.

Smoke
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:08am
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Wait a Second Here

Correctable errors can only be corrected at the first deadball after a live ball. By definition, the ball became live when B shot and made their 1 and 1. When A inbounded the ball after those free throws, the chance to correct the error passed by.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Ok, here's a sitch. Both teams are in the bonus. B1 fouls A1. The officials mistakenly allow A2 to shoot the one-and-one. During A2's first FT, A3 fouls B3. The FT is successful. The officials correctly rule a false double foul and clear the lane for A2's second FT. A2's second attempt is also successful.

Officials then have B3 shoot his one-and-one at the other basket. B3's FTs are both successful. A2 inbounds the ball to A1, but A1 fumbles it and the ball goes OOB.

At this point, (before the ball becomes live for Team B's throw-in) Coach B notifies the officials that A1 should've shot the original one-and-one. Officials correctly rule that the error can still be corrected.

Exactly what do you do to correct this error?
1) The error is correctable as per rule 2-10-2.
2) Cancel everything that happened during the wrongfully shot FT's--A2's 2 FT's, A3's foul, B'3 2 FT's -- as per rule 2-10-2
3) Go back and have A1 the shoot one-and-bonus with no one on the lanes.
4) Resume play at the POI, which is B's ball for a throw-in at the OOB spot closest to where the ball went OOB off of A1. Rule 2-10-6
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:14am
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Why cancel B's Free throws they were not in error? I think they should stand. That is why I think the coach would not be happy about the correction.

NVM - I read a little further and found the answer. What about 2-10-3 a. These points by B all occurred before the error was recognized?
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Last edited by SmokeEater; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:21am.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Correctable errors can only be corrected at the first deadball after a live ball. By definition, the ball became live when B shot and made their 1 and 1. When A inbounded the ball after those free throws, the chance to correct the error passed by.
By definition, you're wrong.

Correctable errors can be corrected until the first dead ball after the ball has become live and the clock has properly started. Rule 2-10-2. The first time that the clock started was on A2's throw-in after all of the FT's . The first dead ball after that was when A1 fumbled the throw-in OOB. That's when the error was caught. Legal play iow.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Why cancel B's Free throws they were not in error? I think they should stand.
Well, both the NFHS and NCAA rulesmakers think that B's free-throws shouldn't stand. I don't make the rules; they do.

Btw, the NCAA cite is rule 2-11-3.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:28am.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) The error is correctable as per rule 2-10-2.
2) Cancel everything that happened during the wrongfully shot FT's--A2's 2 FT's, A3's foul, B'3 2 FT's -- as per rule 2-10-2
3) Go back and have A1 the shoot one-and-bonus with no one on the lanes.
4) Resume play at the POI, which is B's ball for a throw-in at the OOB spot closest to where the ball went OOB off of A1. Rule 2-10-6
Ok, this is the correct answer, according the ruling I got at my most recent rules clinic. However, here's my problem. 2-10-4 says that you cancel the FT and any activity during the FT's (except intentional, flagrant, blah, blah.). However, B3's FT didn't occur during the erroneous FTs by A2.

So the rule explicitly tells us to cancel A3's common foul. But it doesn't seem to tell us to cancel the FTs that resulted from that foul. It doesn't say cancel the foul and any related activity. It just says the foul is cancelled.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were awarded erroneously? No.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were attempted by the wrong playe? No.

You can see where I'm going with this. Is this just a common sense thing that we do b/c it must be right even tho the rules don't seem to say it?
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:29am
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If there's no foul, there can be no FTs.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:30am
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Thumbs up Good clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
By definition, you're wrong.

Correctable errors can be corrected until the first dead ball after the ball has become live and the clock has properly started. Rule 2-10-2. The first time that the clock started was on A2's throw-in after all of the FT's . The first dead ball after that was when A1 fumbled the throw-in OOB. That's when the error was caught. Legal play iow.

Thanks for the clarification. That is helpful as the season starts this week. I know that I sometimes forget about the little phrase "and the clock has started"

Thanks
David
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Correctable errors can only be corrected at the first deadball after a live ball. By definition, the ball became live when B shot and made their 1 and 1. When A inbounded the ball after those free throws, the chance to correct the error passed by.
This is the first deadball after a live ball, after the clock has properly started.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
If there's no foul, there can be no FTs.
There's that common sense thing, but it doesn't say that in 2-10. It doesn't say to cancel the related activity. But the common sense thing would also be to just wipe out everything after the erroneous FTs and start over. And that's not what we're told to do.

I know that's the right answer, Tony. I know that's what they want us to rule. I'm just curious if it shouldn't be part of the rule.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
However, B3's FT didn't occur during the erroneous FTs by A2.

So the rule explicitly tells us to cancel A3's common foul. But it doesn't seem to tell us to cancel the FTs that resulted from that foul. It doesn't say cancel the foul and any related activity. It just says the foul is cancelled.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were awarded erroneously? No.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were attempted by the wrong playe? No.
Chuck, rule 2-10-4 says that you cancel any activity during a FT attempt by the wrong player except for unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls. A3's common foul is therefore cancelled, by rule. If you cancel A3's foul, you also cancel any succeeding FT's for that foul. Whatinthehell would you put B3 on the line for if no foul ever occurred?

B3's FT's are cancelled because B3 was NEVER fouled.

You're over-thinking this one.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:42am.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:39am
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Hey, you asked, Chuck. Why chastise me for agreeing with you?

All activity is cancelled except "unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls."

Is that better?
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Last edited by BktBallRef; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:47am.
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Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
If there's no foul, there can be no FTs.
That's the condensed version.

Do I get points for using more words?
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