The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 08:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Wrong player correctable error

Ok, here's a sitch. Both teams are in the bonus. B1 fouls A1. The officials mistakenly allow A2 to shoot the one-and-one. During A2's first FT, A3 fouls B3. The FT is successful. The officials correctly rule a false double foul and clear the lane for A2's second FT. A2's second attempt is also successful.

Officials then have B3 shoot his one-and-one at the other basket. B3's FTs are both successful. A2 inbounds the ball to A1, but A1 fumbles it and the ball goes OOB.

At this point, (before the ball becomes live for Team B's throw-in) Coach B notifies the officials that A1 should've shot the original one-and-one. Officials correctly rule that the error can still be corrected.

Exactly what do you do to correct this error?
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 08:45am
MABO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MB, Canada
Posts: 796
Cancel A2 free throws and have A1 shoot a 1 and 1 withthe lane cleared. Then ball put back into play where B was to get it after the OOB. It won't make A coach or fans very happy but thats the correct way to administer the correction I believe.

Smoke
__________________
"Your Azz is the Red Sea, My foot is Moses, and I am about to part the Red Sea all the way up to my knee!"

All references/comments are intended for educational purposes. Opinions are free.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 718
Wait a Second Here

Correctable errors can only be corrected at the first deadball after a live ball. By definition, the ball became live when B shot and made their 1 and 1. When A inbounded the ball after those free throws, the chance to correct the error passed by.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:12am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Ok, here's a sitch. Both teams are in the bonus. B1 fouls A1. The officials mistakenly allow A2 to shoot the one-and-one. During A2's first FT, A3 fouls B3. The FT is successful. The officials correctly rule a false double foul and clear the lane for A2's second FT. A2's second attempt is also successful.

Officials then have B3 shoot his one-and-one at the other basket. B3's FTs are both successful. A2 inbounds the ball to A1, but A1 fumbles it and the ball goes OOB.

At this point, (before the ball becomes live for Team B's throw-in) Coach B notifies the officials that A1 should've shot the original one-and-one. Officials correctly rule that the error can still be corrected.

Exactly what do you do to correct this error?
1) The error is correctable as per rule 2-10-2.
2) Cancel everything that happened during the wrongfully shot FT's--A2's 2 FT's, A3's foul, B'3 2 FT's -- as per rule 2-10-2
3) Go back and have A1 the shoot one-and-bonus with no one on the lanes.
4) Resume play at the POI, which is B's ball for a throw-in at the OOB spot closest to where the ball went OOB off of A1. Rule 2-10-6
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:14am
MABO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MB, Canada
Posts: 796
Why cancel B's Free throws they were not in error? I think they should stand. That is why I think the coach would not be happy about the correction.

NVM - I read a little further and found the answer. What about 2-10-3 a. These points by B all occurred before the error was recognized?
__________________
"Your Azz is the Red Sea, My foot is Moses, and I am about to part the Red Sea all the way up to my knee!"

All references/comments are intended for educational purposes. Opinions are free.

Last edited by SmokeEater; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:21am.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:16am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Correctable errors can only be corrected at the first deadball after a live ball. By definition, the ball became live when B shot and made their 1 and 1. When A inbounded the ball after those free throws, the chance to correct the error passed by.
By definition, you're wrong.

Correctable errors can be corrected until the first dead ball after the ball has become live and the clock has properly started. Rule 2-10-2. The first time that the clock started was on A2's throw-in after all of the FT's . The first dead ball after that was when A1 fumbled the throw-in OOB. That's when the error was caught. Legal play iow.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:20am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Why cancel B's Free throws they were not in error? I think they should stand.
Well, both the NFHS and NCAA rulesmakers think that B's free-throws shouldn't stand. I don't make the rules; they do.

Btw, the NCAA cite is rule 2-11-3.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:28am.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:23am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) The error is correctable as per rule 2-10-2.
2) Cancel everything that happened during the wrongfully shot FT's--A2's 2 FT's, A3's foul, B'3 2 FT's -- as per rule 2-10-2
3) Go back and have A1 the shoot one-and-bonus with no one on the lanes.
4) Resume play at the POI, which is B's ball for a throw-in at the OOB spot closest to where the ball went OOB off of A1. Rule 2-10-6
Ok, this is the correct answer, according the ruling I got at my most recent rules clinic. However, here's my problem. 2-10-4 says that you cancel the FT and any activity during the FT's (except intentional, flagrant, blah, blah.). However, B3's FT didn't occur during the erroneous FTs by A2.

So the rule explicitly tells us to cancel A3's common foul. But it doesn't seem to tell us to cancel the FTs that resulted from that foul. It doesn't say cancel the foul and any related activity. It just says the foul is cancelled.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were awarded erroneously? No.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were attempted by the wrong playe? No.

You can see where I'm going with this. Is this just a common sense thing that we do b/c it must be right even tho the rules don't seem to say it?
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:29am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
If there's no foul, there can be no FTs.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Thumbs up Good clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
By definition, you're wrong.

Correctable errors can be corrected until the first dead ball after the ball has become live and the clock has properly started. Rule 2-10-2. The first time that the clock started was on A2's throw-in after all of the FT's . The first dead ball after that was when A1 fumbled the throw-in OOB. That's when the error was caught. Legal play iow.

Thanks for the clarification. That is helpful as the season starts this week. I know that I sometimes forget about the little phrase "and the clock has started"

Thanks
David
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Correctable errors can only be corrected at the first deadball after a live ball. By definition, the ball became live when B shot and made their 1 and 1. When A inbounded the ball after those free throws, the chance to correct the error passed by.
This is the first deadball after a live ball, after the clock has properly started.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
If there's no foul, there can be no FTs.
There's that common sense thing, but it doesn't say that in 2-10. It doesn't say to cancel the related activity. But the common sense thing would also be to just wipe out everything after the erroneous FTs and start over. And that's not what we're told to do.

I know that's the right answer, Tony. I know that's what they want us to rule. I'm just curious if it shouldn't be part of the rule.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:39am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
However, B3's FT didn't occur during the erroneous FTs by A2.

So the rule explicitly tells us to cancel A3's common foul. But it doesn't seem to tell us to cancel the FTs that resulted from that foul. It doesn't say cancel the foul and any related activity. It just says the foul is cancelled.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were awarded erroneously? No.

Are B3's FTs cancelled b/c they were attempted by the wrong playe? No.
Chuck, rule 2-10-4 says that you cancel any activity during a FT attempt by the wrong player except for unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls. A3's common foul is therefore cancelled, by rule. If you cancel A3's foul, you also cancel any succeeding FT's for that foul. Whatinthehell would you put B3 on the line for if no foul ever occurred?

B3's FT's are cancelled because B3 was NEVER fouled.

You're over-thinking this one.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:42am.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Hey, you asked, Chuck. Why chastise me for agreeing with you?

All activity is cancelled except "unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls."

Is that better?
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith

Last edited by BktBallRef; Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 09:47am.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 30, 2006, 09:40am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
If there's no foul, there can be no FTs.
That's the condensed version.

Do I get points for using more words?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correctable Error johnnyrao Basketball 19 Mon Jul 24, 2006 08:06pm
Correctable Error eventnyc Basketball 20 Wed Feb 15, 2006 04:20pm
Reporting wrong # on foul correctable roadking Basketball 2 Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:41pm
Correctable Error? Viking32 Basketball 3 Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:48am
Correctable Error???? jshock Basketball 1 Thu Nov 30, 2000 05:08pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1