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Old Sat Jul 22, 2006, 08:45pm
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Unhappy Correctable Error

Okay, I have to start avoiding summer tournaments because, once again, I was part of a crew that made a pretty big error today. Anyway, my question deals with the timing of correcting a correctable error. We were working three person mechanics. Game tied 46-46 with less than a minute left. I was trail and the lead and I had a double whistle when A1 drove to the basket and attempted a lay up (the foul was in the dual coverage area of the court). I yielded to my partner and he called the foul. He is a relatively new official and did not tell us or signal exactly what he was calling (no criticism here, just the facts). My other partner and I lined up everyone to shoot the free throws. A1 hit the free throw (we have a running clock and shoot one free throw to make two points) and Team B inbounded the ball. Team A now leads 48-46. B1 gets fouled and hits the free throw to tie the game 48-48. Team A calls a TO and one of our trainers comes on the court and tells us we blew the Team A free throw because they were not yet in the bonus. My partner and I both said the shooter was in the act of shooting. Our other partner (who called the foul) said no, the foul occured prior to the shot so it should have been an inbound and no free throws. Uh Oh! We decided that at that time it was too late to correct it. Neither coach was even aware of what happened. I can honestly say that if I had not yielded to my partner on the original foul I would have said she was shooting and we have had a free throw so I wasn't even thinking about it.

Anyway, back to the original question. I think we would have been able to correct it if the error was discovered prior to giving the ball to B1 for her free throw. If I have it right, A1 made the free throw, Team B inbounded the ball and the clock starts, we call a foul on B1 making the ball dead. So, as long as we correct it prior to the lead administering the free throw to B1 we can correct it.

Once again, I am VERY glad this happened in July and not in a big game in January. It would not be fun to tell the coaches and scorers to take 2 points off the board in a tie game with about 15 seconds left.

Lastly, I still think A1 was in the act of shooting. Is it the call of the referee who actually makes the foul call to decide this? If we came together to discuss the correctable error, can the R decide that she was shooting and thus was shooting merited free throws? Or is it up to the calling official? In this case two of us thought she was shooting, one didn't, we did it wrong, and could have paid pretty severely for it. In this case everything went okay in the end and we all learned some things.
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Old Sat Jul 22, 2006, 09:57pm
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You're right in that it was too late to correct the error as soon as the ball became live on B1's first free throw.

And....the calling official on the foul on A1 can never be over-ruled. The calling official is the only official that can change his own call, and if he doesn't want to, then it doesn't get changed. That's NFHS rule 2-6.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 04:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
You're right in that it was too late to correct the error as soon as the ball became live on B1's first free throw.

And....the calling official on the foul on A1 can never be over-ruled. The calling official is the only official that can change his own call, and if he doesn't want to, then it doesn't get changed. That's NFHS rule 2-6.
However, if one official has a foul before the shot and one has a foul on the shot, it's not a matter of overruling, it's a matter of which happened first....the one before the shot (assuming they both have the act of shooting starting at the same time)
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao
Okay, I have to start avoiding summer tournaments because, once again, I was part of a crew that made a pretty big error today.

Once again, I am VERY glad this happened in July and not in a big game in January.
The first line doesn't make any sense to me. We all make mistakes, it happens no matter what. It seems to me that it's much better to make them in July and learn from them than to make them in January. One of the reasons I work in the summer is to improve my game and learn as much as I can. You can't decide not to work in the summer because you may work with less experienced officials and your crew may screw something up.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 10:34am
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[QUOTE=johnnyrao]I was trail and the lead and I had a double whistle when A1 drove to the basket and attempted a lay up (the foul was in the dual coverage area of the court).

I have a question.

(1) Did the drive originate from your primary? I say this because, if the play origianated from your primary. You have the ball all the way to the basket until the ballhandler either pass or shoot.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
I have a question.

(1) Did the drive originate from your primary? I say this because, if the play origianated from your primary. You have the ball all the way to the basket until the ballhandler either pass or shoot.
Really? Where can I read this mechanic?

Also Johnny, where is the dual coverage area that you're speaking of? What mechanics are you speaking of?
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 11:53am
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[QUOTE=BktBallRef]Really? Where can I read this mechanic?

You can read it on page 22 of the 2005-07 Official Manual sub-part #206. This gives the primary area official the opportunity to see the entire play all the way through from start to finish. I know you know that you are trying to see if I knew it. Thanks
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 12:08pm
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That's two man. This is three man. In three man, the trail's depth of coverage is determined by game action. It's not automatic that "you have the ball all the way to the basket." For example:

Let's say A1 starts in the T's area, directly in front of him. He drives down the sideline, goes baseline and shoots a reverse layup. Do we really want the T making that call? Both the L and the C have a much better look at the drive and the shot.

Many things don't transfer from two man to three man. It's a different game.

Also for johnny, there is no dual coverage area for the L and T under NFHS mechanics.
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Last edited by BktBallRef; Sun Jul 23, 2006 at 12:42pm.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
That's two man. This is three man.

Let's say A1 starts in the T's area, directly in front of him. He drives down the sideline, goes baseline and shoots a reverse layup. Do we really want the T making that call?
I see your point. This can be something which can be pre-gamed.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 01:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_REF
The first line doesn't make any sense to me. We all make mistakes, it happens no matter what. It seems to me that it's much better to make them in July and learn from them than to make them in January. One of the reasons I work in the summer is to improve my game and learn as much as I can. You can't decide not to work in the summer because you may work with less experienced officials and your crew may screw something up.
I was only kidding because two weeks in a row I have worked close games with tough calls at the end. I had a post last week about another situation I had regarding a 5 second call. I agree with all you say and I have learned much from these two weeks. There have just been a couple of events that I would prefer not to have happen this winter, particularly in back to back to back games.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 01:53pm
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[QUOTE=truerookie]
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao
I was trail and the lead and I had a double whistle when A1 drove to the basket and attempted a lay up (the foul was in the dual coverage area of the court).

I have a question.

(1) Did the drive originate from your primary? I say this because, if the play origianated from your primary. You have the ball all the way to the basket until the ballhandler either pass or shoot.
Since we were working a summer league game we were rotating games and did not pre-game. During the season this is the primary method we use and in the rgular season we would do this since it came from my area. In this case the lead was very strong on his call and when we made eye contact he indicated he wanted it so I let him have it. Probably should have done this differently too but that's what I did.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 01:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Also for johnny, there is no dual coverage area for the L and T under NFHS mechanics.
I don't disagree with you about NFHS, but our state official's manual does show this and explain it. They show a shaded area for three-person mechanics on the trail and lead's side of the court. It covers the area inside the three point arc from about mid-way from the baseline to the three point arc. The drive in this case originated from the "dual coverage area" (that is what our manual calls it). Is this a state specific thing? My magnetic board I use for pre-games does not have it but the manual definitely does.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 02:13pm
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The NF eliminated the dual coverage area two or three seasons ago. Your state association either ignored the change, just hasn't changed their manual yet or they've changed and you need to get a new book.
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Old Sun Jul 23, 2006, 04:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao
I was only kidding because two weeks in a row I have worked close games with tough calls at the end. I had a post last week about another situation I had regarding a 5 second call. I agree with all you say and I have learned much from these two weeks. There have just been a couple of events that I would prefer not to have happen this winter, particularly in back to back to back games.
I must have missed your last post. If I had a nickel for every time I got done with a game and swore I'd never work another Jr. High game, I could retire from my real job and work basketball full time.
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Old Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:50am
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3man/2man

BBR...was at our association clinic and our bb trainer taught us in three man to take the play to the basket if it originates from your primary(such as on a drive to the basket),unless it settles in the leads primary, in two man I know that the primary call is if the ball is coming at you...I found this to be quite a difference...as far as your example I would prefer the lead to take this call...I'm learning 3man and just need some more games to get comfortable with it...rotations take awhile ...but think I might like this better than 2man...
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