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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 10:36pm
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This article was published in Newsday and involved an official from my association. I removed his name. Was the enforcement correct?

Jeff Gold

January 31, 2006

The two coaches saw it one way, the official said they misperceived the situation, but in the end, the result was correct.

Westbury beat host Roosevelt, 53-52, in a Conference A-III boys basketball game last night, but for a moment, the Rough Riders thought they had pulled out a miraculous win.

With his team holding a 53-52 lead, Westbury's Bruce Chong went to the line with three seconds left. After he missed his free throw, Roosevelt's Jamal White launched a shot from around midcourt that went in off the backboard for an apparent winning three-pointer.

Referee XXXXXX signaled that the shot was good, and Roosevelt's stands emptied onto the court as the players and fans celebrated.

Not so fast. Because Roosevelt had reached 10 fouls, Westbury was in the double bonus, and Chong had merely taken the first of two foul shots. He was entitled to another one.

Westbury coach Dave Graff said he immediately knew the shot should not count. Graff said he "chased [XXXXXX] down beyond the Roosevelt bench as he was leaving the building" to argue that his team should get another free throw.

Roosevelt coach Tom Hammond agreed, saying: "The referee went to the scorer's table to signal that the basket counted and then started to head out. Then [Graff] got his attention."

Graff said the referees acknowledged he was correct and waved off the basket. Chong missed the second free throw and Roosevelt's second heave fell short, giving Westbury (8-0) the victory. Roosevelt is 3-5.

XXXX acknowledged signaling the basket was good but said he immediately corrected the error at the scorer's table.

"Absolutely nobody left the court or was in the process of leaving. The idea that anyone was leaving is completely untrue," said XXXXX, a 35-year official who said he has refereed 20 Nassau finals. "We knew the basket should not count. Regardless of what you signal, the important thing is to get the call right, and we did. The right team won. The only time I went over the halfcourt line was to tell Tom Hammond what was going on and that the game was not over."

Your opinion and rule reference please.
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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 10:51pm
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Rainmaker has put extensive thought into this stuff, and I'll be interested to see what she says, others too. And I don't have my case book here, but from strictly my reading of rule 2-10 (NFHS), here's what I get:

If the administering official told them 2 shots, then you have nothing more than an excitable young man throwing up a prayer with a dead ball. Major bummer for sure, but wipe off the basket, restore the time on the clock, line everybody up for the second shot and go on as if nothing ever happened.

If the official signaled 1&1, then things get more interesting. You have a failure to award a merited free throw, which is a correctible error. And you're still within the time frame to correct it. However, "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." At that point you shoot the additional free throw with the lane cleared and go to the POI, which is the throw-in after the made basket.
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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 11:26pm
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Where's Dan ?
He knows.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 01:58am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Rainmaker has put extensive thought into this stuff, and I'll be interested to see what she says, others too. And I don't have my case book here, but from strictly my reading of rule 2-10 (NFHS), here's what I get:

If the administering official told them 2 shots, then you have nothing more than an excitable young man throwing up a prayer with a dead ball. Major bummer for sure, but wipe off the basket, restore the time on the clock, line everybody up for the second shot and go on as if nothing ever happened.

If the official signaled 1&1, then things get more interesting. You have a failure to award a merited free throw, which is a correctible error. And you're still within the time frame to correct it. However, "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." At that point you shoot the additional free throw with the lane cleared and go to the POI, which is the throw-in after the made basket.
My "extensive thought" doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as official rulings, Ray. My articles were mostly clarifications and memory helps (okay, mnemonics for you vocabulary mavens).

But judging from the case book, I'd say that regardless of whether the refs announced "two shots" or "1-and-1" the winning basket in this game has to count. I can't see any way to nullify it, as the situation came out. Case 2.10.1 Sit B says, "A1 has gbeen awarded two free throws. Erroneously, the ball is allowed to remain in play after A2 misses on the first attempt. A2 rebounds the miss and tosses the ball through the basket. B1 secures the ball and inbounds it. Play continues until a foul is called on A2 as B is passing the ball in B's frontcourt. Ruling: The goal by A2 counts, but the error of not awarding A1 a second freethrow is no longer correctable. Since the ball remained in play on the missed free throw, the clock started and the ball became dead when the goal was scored.

You also can't put time back on the clock. It appears to me that in order to prevent this incredibly horrible outcome, the refs should have blown the play dead as soon as B rebounded. Even if they'd blown it dead as B was heading up court, it would have been sufficient. But once the basket is made at the other end, I can't see any rules justification for calling it back. I'd be interested to hear what Chuck or Jurassic have to say. Isn't this sitch interesting enough to get JR back?
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 03:06am
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It should be a good bucket and game over, since the 2nd FT now has no impact on winning or losing the game.

The right team did not win the game.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 04:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Rainmaker has put extensive thought into this stuff, and I'll be interested to see what she says, others too. And I don't have my case book here, but from strictly my reading of rule 2-10 (NFHS), here's what I get:

If the administering official told them 2 shots, then you have nothing more than an excitable young man throwing up a prayer with a dead ball. Major bummer for sure, but wipe off the basket, restore the time on the clock, line everybody up for the second shot and go on as if nothing ever happened.

If the official signaled 1&1, then things get more interesting. You have a failure to award a merited free throw, which is a correctible error. And you're still within the time frame to correct it. However, "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." At that point you shoot the additional free throw with the lane cleared and go to the POI, which is the throw-in after the made basket.
My "extensive thought" doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as official rulings, Ray. My articles were mostly clarifications and memory helps (okay, mnemonics for you vocabulary mavens).

But judging from the case book, I'd say that regardless of whether the refs announced "two shots" or "1-and-1" the winning basket in this game has to count. I can't see any way to nullify it, as the situation came out. Case 2.10.1 Sit B says, "A1 has gbeen awarded two free throws. Erroneously, the ball is allowed to remain in play after A2 misses on the first attempt. A2 rebounds the miss and tosses the ball through the basket. B1 secures the ball and inbounds it. Play continues until a foul is called on A2 as B is passing the ball in B's frontcourt. Ruling: The goal by A2 counts, but the error of not awarding A1 a second freethrow is no longer correctable. Since the ball remained in play on the missed free throw, the clock started and the ball became dead when the goal was scored.

You also can't put time back on the clock. It appears to me that in order to prevent this incredibly horrible outcome, the refs should have blown the play dead as soon as B rebounded. Even if they'd blown it dead as B was heading up court, it would have been sufficient. But once the basket is made at the other end, I can't see any rules justification for calling it back. I'd be interested to hear what Chuck or Jurassic have to say. Isn't this sitch interesting enough to get JR back?
I fully concur with rainmaker.

The officials made a terrible mistake by allowing the ball to be in play following the first FT, however, they cannot by rule cancel the goal that was scored unless someone sounded a whistle. No time can be restored and the final FT doesn't matter to the outcome since the team now trails by two, so it is not administered.

The officials screwed this up twice.

BTW, I've been gone for three days, so what did I miss that chased away JR?




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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
BTW, I've been gone for three days, so what did I miss that chased away JR?
Big Bad Bob took away his freedom of speech. So he's off sulking on McGriff's.

http://officialforum.com/thread/24519
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 09:12am
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[/B][/QUOTE]

My "extensive thought" doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as official rulings, Ray. My articles were mostly clarifications and memory helps (okay, mnemonics for you vocabulary mavens).

But judging from the case book, I'd say that regardless of whether the refs announced "two shots" or "1-and-1" the winning basket in this game has to count. I can't see any way to nullify it, as the situation came out. Case 2.10.1 Sit B says, "A1 has gbeen awarded two free throws. Erroneously, the ball is allowed to remain in play after A2 misses on the first attempt. A2 rebounds the miss and tosses the ball through the basket. B1 secures the ball and inbounds it. Play continues until a foul is called on A2 as B is passing the ball in B's frontcourt. Ruling: The goal by A2 counts, but the error of not awarding A1 a second freethrow is no longer correctable. Since the ball remained in play on the missed free throw, the clock started and the ball became dead when the goal was scored.

You also can't put time back on the clock. It appears to me that in order to prevent this incredibly horrible outcome, the refs should have blown the play dead as soon as B rebounded. Even if they'd blown it dead as B was heading up court, it would have been sufficient. But once the basket is made at the other end, I can't see any rules justification for calling it back. I'd be interested to hear what Chuck or Jurassic have to say. Isn't this sitch interesting enough to get JR back? [/B][/QUOTE]

I fully concur with rainmaker.

The officials made a terrible mistake by allowing the ball to be in play following the first FT, however, they cannot by rule cancel the goal that was scored unless someone sounded a whistle. No time can be restored and the final FT doesn't matter to the outcome since the team now trails by two, so it is not administered.

The officials screwed this up twice.

BTW, I've been gone for three days, so what did I miss that chased away JR?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, Let's get this right. I wasn't there, but I know the referee. He was probably misinformed by the table and told it was 1 & 1. As Julie stated, that doesn't mean anything. The first shot is missed and the rebound secured with little to no time remaining. A three-point desparation shot is thrown up and goes in as the horn sounds. The game is over and the officials are notified prior to them leaving the visual confines of the court. The non-awarded free throw must be shot, with no players filling the lanes, to determine whether we go in to an overtime period. All time, baskets scored, etc. count.

Are we in agreement?
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally posted by eventnyc

Ok, Let's get this right. I wasn't there, but I know the referee. He was probably misinformed by the table and told it was 1 & 1. As Julie stated, that doesn't mean anything. The first shot is missed and the rebound secured with little to no time remaining. A three-point desparation shot is thrown up and goes in as the horn sounds. The game is over and the officials are notified prior to them leaving the visual confines of the court. The non-awarded free throw must be shot, with no players filling the lanes, to determine whether we go in to an overtime period. All time, baskets scored, etc. count.

Are we in agreement?
I don't think the non-awarded FT need be shot.

Before the foul the score was A 52, B 52.

After the missed FT, the score was A 52, B52 (duh!)

After the half-court heave, the score was A 52, B 55.

THe most A can score is one point on the FT -- no need to shoot it.

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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 01:39pm
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Wow! What a situation to be in! By rule, any time, points, fouls, or actions that occur prior to the error being discovered cannot be erased. Therefore the 53-52 leads becomes 53-55 and the unawarded FT is NOT shot because it will not tie or win the game.

I would like to think that I could administer this correctly - but my gut tells me that I would probably blow it.

The question then becomes how well can you explain it to the coaches/official scorer and then your assignor? I pray that this doesn't happen to me or anyone else again!!!!
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by eventnyc

Ok, Let's get this right. I wasn't there, but I know the referee. He was probably misinformed by the table and told it was 1 & 1. As Julie stated, that doesn't mean anything. The first shot is missed and the rebound secured with little to no time remaining. A three-point desparation shot is thrown up and goes in as the horn sounds. The game is over and the officials are notified prior to them leaving the visual confines of the court. The non-awarded free throw must be shot, with no players filling the lanes, to determine whether we go in to an overtime period. All time, baskets scored, etc. count.

Are we in agreement?
I don't think the non-awarded FT need be shot.

Before the foul the score was A 52, B 52.

My bad. I thought the final score was 53-52 after the succesful three. You're correct - no free throw required.

After the missed FT, the score was A 52, B52 (duh!)

After the half-court heave, the score was A 52, B 55.

THe most A can score is one point on the FT -- no need to shoot it.

You're right. I incorrectly thought that the score after the succesful free throw was 53-52. In that case you'd have to shoot the free throw to determine if we went into an overtime period. My bad!

[Edited by eventnyc on Feb 3rd, 2006 at 01:49 PM]
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 02:06pm
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Had there been a minute on the clock when this occurred I would be inclined to agree with Rainmaker and others. If the team comes down sets up and scores and I haven't caught the error then I can see the point. But, with only 3 seconds on the clock and the kid kid grabs the missed free throw (notice I didn't say rebound) takes two giant steps and jacks up a hope and a prayer, I'm wavin' it off and sayin' the ball was dead. One more free throw. I think the officials did absolutely the right thing!
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 02:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcdanrd
Had there been a minute on the clock when this occurred I would be inclined to agree with Rainmaker and others. If the team comes down sets up and scores and I haven't caught the error then I can see the point. But, with only 3 seconds on the clock and the kid kid grabs the missed free throw (notice I didn't say rebound) takes two giant steps and jacks up a hope and a prayer, I'm wavin' it off and sayin' the ball was dead. One more free throw. I think the officials did absolutely the right thing!
Too bad you have no rule citation to support that decision.

You can't just pick and choose when to enforce something because there is more or less time on the clock.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcdanrd
Had there been a minute on the clock when this occurred I would be inclined to agree with Rainmaker and others. If the team comes down sets up and scores and I haven't caught the error then I can see the point. But, with only 3 seconds on the clock and the kid kid grabs the missed free throw (notice I didn't say rebound) takes two giant steps and jacks up a hope and a prayer, I'm wavin' it off and sayin' the ball was dead. One more free throw. I think the officials did absolutely the right thing!
I guess you could do that, however that is clearly contrary to the rules.

This is clearly a correctable error that was not administrated by the book.

The boys are correct, 3 point shot counts, no free throws, game over...if you go by the book
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 02:25pm
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Question Don't I qualify as a 'JR'?

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Originally posted by Nevadaref
BTW, I've been gone for three days, so what did I miss that chased away JR?
Ahem...

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