team control signal for NFHS

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1) As much as I hate when officials blatantly ignore NF mechanics, I have to disagree with your position.

2) The NF has not made it clear what sequence the signal is supposed to be used. Of course the NF has put the information how they want this to be covered through Referee Magazine, but when you look at actually NF books, there is almost no mention of the sequence or order is to make all those signals or when to use those signals. I think the NF is doing a terrible job to show something that is very easy to do. It is one thing to list a signal chart. If you have a sequence that you only want to be uses, why not make that clear in the signal chart?

1) What position of mine are you disagreeing with? If you re-read my post, all I did was ask a few questions- without taking ANY position at all.

2) Say WHAT? The NFHS posted the exact signaling sequence on their website back in May. It's still posted there. That's noted in my post of Oct. 6. And as Z posted at the start of this thread, you can find the correct new signaling sequence laid out on page 72 of this year's rule book. Signal #4 followed by signal #34. The FED couldn't be any clearer imo.

[deecee]

after you have done micromanaging weather to blow-raise fist-point fist and call offensive versus blow-point-call-raise or whatever chain of events you chose make sure you actually remember to report and do some jumping jacks. I dont see what the huge deal is and why some people get so bent out of shape if somepeople just blow-point-yell offensive and some blow-raise-point-yell and some blow-raise-point and some blow-point-raise. Just make sure what you do is communicated with your partner and that the teams know what going on. me personally sometimes i might blow-point-yell and sometimes i might blow-raise-point-yell (by point of course i mean close fisted because the game might cease to exist if i forget that part).

flame me if you must but I dont see the big deal with blow-point-yell and blow-raise-point-yell. in the end get the call right, communicate and hustle. i personally dont care much about being off on a mechanic or not rather than being off in judgement and rule knowledge and application. IMO there are very few officials out there who are flawless at mechanics, rules knowledge and application, and game management. Usually I have learned and seen that out of those 4 most officials will be very good at 3 and not so good at 1. just the nature of the beast i suppose. I focus on the latter 3 and in time my mechanics will have to catch up. I am still working on rules and I am basically only really good at game management and decent at rules application and knowledge.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by deecee

after you have done micromanaging weather to blow-raise fist-point fist and call offensive versus blow-point-call-raise or whatever chain of events you chose make sure you actually remember to report and do some jumping jacks. I dont see what the huge deal is and why some people get so bent out of shape if somepeople just blow-point-yell offensive and some blow-raise-point-yell and some blow-raise-point and some blow-point-raise. Just make sure what you do is communicated with your partner and that the teams know what going on. me personally sometimes i might blow-point-yell and sometimes i might blow-raise-point-yell (by point of course i mean close fisted because the game might cease to exist if i forget that part).

flame me if you must but I dont see the big deal with blow-point-yell and blow-raise-point-yell. in the end get the call right, communicate and hustle. i personally dont care much about being off on a mechanic or not rather than being off in judgement and rule knowledge and application. IMO there are very few officials out there who are flawless at mechanics, rules knowledge and application, and game management. Usually I have learned and seen that out of those 4 most officials will be very good at 3 and not so good at 1. just the nature of the beast i suppose. I focus on the latter 3 and in time my mechanics will have to catch up. I am still working on rules and I am basically only really good at game management and decent at rules application and knowledge.

Nuf Said! I agree!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What position of mine are you disagreeing with? If you re-read my post, all I did was ask a few questions- without taking ANY position at all.

I am disagreeing with your position that it would be wrong to use the NCAA Mechanic when with all the information that has been given the NCAA Women's Mechanic and the NF mechanic are basically the same.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) Say WHAT? The NFHS posted the exact signaling sequence on their website back in May. It's still posted there. That's noted in my post of Oct. 6. And as Z posted at the start of this thread, you can find the correct new signaling sequence laid out on page 72 of this year's rule book. Signal #4 followed by signal #34. The FED couldn't be any clearer imo.

You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. What does not seemed to be clear to me and to many others, is do we completely eliminate the other signals (block, push, illegal use of hands) and use only the TC signal when calling a TC foul. The book in my opinion talks more about the using of this signal to eliminate confusion with a PC foul.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. Peace

Not exactly - the difference is the closed fist. In Fed., they want the closed fist in the air to signal a foul, then the "punch" to signal a team control foul. In NCAA-W, only the punch is used, not the fist in the air first. Subtle difference.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Not exactly - the difference is the closed fist. In Fed., they want the closed fist in the air to signal a foul, then the "punch" to signal a team control foul. In NCAA-W, only the punch is used, not the fist in the air first. Subtle difference.

You might be right, but when I did Women's basketball, the mechanic was to raise the hand. Many people did not follow the mechanic (surprise, surprise) and would go to the punch signal. That has been about 5 years ago so I would not be surprised if that has changed. It is not much different in the Men's game where you are supposed to use the stop clock for out of bounds plays, but people do not use that signal and just point.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You might be right, but when I did Women's basketball, the mechanic was to raise the hand. Many people did not follow the mechanic (surprise, surprise) and would go to the punch signal. That has been about 5 years ago so I would not be surprised if that has changed.

I don't remember whether or not we were to raise the fist first. But in the last couple of years it has been just to punch the fist in the direction the ball is to go next.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not much different in the Men's game where you are supposed to use the stop clock for out of bounds plays, but people do not use that signal and just point.

That's also a NCAA-W's mechanic, and has been for several years. I have heard a men's supervisor say they don't like that, and he wants his officials to "use the men's mechanic, not the women's mechanic". That may not be true for all. I have also heard from our good buddies Kurt and Beth that we are to specifically "stop the clock" (raise the hand) when we blow our whistle in HS, and to not just point.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I don't remember whether or not we were to raise the fist first. But in the last couple of years it has been just to punch the fist in the direction the ball is to go next.


That's also a NCAA-W's mechanic, and has been for several years. I have heard a men's supervisor say they don't like that, and he wants his officials to "use the men's mechanic, not the women's mechanic". That may not be true for all. I have also heard from our good buddies Kurt and Beth that we are to specifically "stop the clock" (raise the hand) when we blow our whistle in HS, and to not just point.

We need to go to precision time so when the whistle blows, the clock stops automatically and then we can just punch or point!!!!!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

We need to go to precision time so when the whistle blows, the clock stops automatically and then we can just punch or point!!!!!!!

The precision timing system is not going to avoid a possible double whistle situation.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I don't remember whether or not we were to raise the fist first. But in the last couple of years it has been just to punch the fist in the direction the ball is to go next.

Well a lot of things changed without explanation when Referee Magazine started publishing the CCA Books. The same thing happens on the Men's side with out of bounds plays. All of a sudden they took out the comment "You do not need to use the stop clock signal on out of bounds calls." Then it was made clear that you had to use the stop clock signal. It makes me wonder if CCA consciously knew what was in their previous books.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That's also a NCAA-W's mechanic, and has been for several years. I have heard a men's supervisor say they don't like that, and he wants his officials to "use the men's mechanic, not the women's mechanic". That may not be true for all. I have also heard from our good buddies Kurt and Beth that we are to specifically "stop the clock" (raise the hand) when we blow our whistle in HS, and to not just point.

That is true depending on whom you work for and who you are as an official. Remember some officials can do a lot of things that a lowly official like myself cannot do.

I also heard the same thing from Harry B. when I attended his camp this summer. I still see how things will be confusing to those that either did not attend the right meeting in their association or attend the right camp.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

deecee and IREFU2 - here's where I find myself becoming old fuddy-duddy. In my younger days I would've agreed whole-heartedly with you. What the hell difference does it make what signal you use, as long as everyone knows what the call is. Getting the call right is the most important thing, right? Well, as I've gone through the ranks, I've found that doing the proper mechanics says as much about you as knowing the rules. And, more often than not, people will judge you on your appearance, including mechanics. They may not get to judge you as often on rule knowledge, because there may be plenty of games where nothing unusual happens where you can show off your knowledge. But you do get to show off your mechanics every game. Do you come to a game with mud on your shoes? How about those wrinkles in your shirt? If you're careful about those aspects, why do you want to be sloppy in your mechanics? Why not "do it by the book"?

[IREFU2]

Trust me, mechanics is the one thing that I am strong in and I have never had a problem in that area. I was just stating what I do in regards to the TC Foul. I really appreciate your input though. I guess we should just wait until the Fed's come out with the proper procedures.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I guess we should just wait until the Fed's come out with the proper procedures.

Maybe you haven't been reading all the posts in this thread, but JR has already pointed out that the FED has already come out with the approved mechanic procedure for the team control foul. It's posted on the FED website. The mechanic is:

1) Stop clock (fist over head).
2) TC signal (fist straight out in front of body).
3) Preliminary signal (block, push, etc.).
4) Designate spot for throw-in.

So you can stop waiting.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Do you come to a game with mud on your shoes? How about those wrinkles in your shirt?

That's nothing you've have to worry about with IREFU2. I think he even irons his socks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1) I am disagreeing with your position that it would be wrong to use the NCAA Mechanic when with all the information that has been given the NCAA Women's Mechanic and the NF mechanic are basically the same.

2)You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. What does not seemed to be clear to me and to many others, is do we completely eliminate the other signals (block, push, illegal use of hands) and use only the TC signal when calling a TC foul. The book in my opinion talks more about the using of this signal to eliminate confusion with a PC foul.

1) Would you care to point out exactly where I took that position in this thread? Or where I took any position in this thread?

2) You might not be aware either, but the complete foul reporting procedure is on P36 & 37 of the current NFHS Officials Manual. #231(d) on p.37 states that you only use a single signal for PC fouls. It doesn't mention using a single signal for TC fouls also, and there's nothing on the FED website that says anything different either. The FED couldn't be any clearer on what they want done imo. All you have to do really is read #230 and #231.