team control signal for NFHS

[zebraman]

Apologies in advance if this has already been addressed recenly. I did a search and didn't find any recent ones.

The last time I remember us discussing the team control signal, there was still some debate about whether a raised fist preceded the team control signal for NFHS.

From Page 72 of the 2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Book:

Team-Control Foul Signal Added (Signal Chart): The arm is extended forward and the fist is punched. The signal should be preceded by the stop clock for a foul signal (arm extended over head with the fist).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by zebraman

The last time I remember us discussing the team control signal, there was still some debate about whether a raised fist preceded the team control signal for NFHS.

No there wasn't...the proper FED ruling was cited. Some other things were debated, as usual.

Team Control Signal?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Apologies in advance if this has already been addressed recenly. I did a search and didn't find any recent ones.

The last time I remember us discussing the team control signal, there was still some debate about whether a raised fist preceded the team control signal for NFHS.

From Page 72 of the 2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Book:

Team-Control Foul Signal Added (Signal Chart): The arm is extended forward and the fist is punched. The signal should be preceded by the stop clock for a foul signal (arm extended over head with the fist).

I will probably do the whistle followed by the punch and yell offensive. Its the same mechanic as the NCAA Womens Team Control.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I will probably do the whistle followed by the punch and yell offensive. Its the same mechanic as the NCAA Womens Team Control.

Why would you use NCAA Womens mechanics in an NFHS game? Do you use all of the Women's mechanics?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why would you use NCAA Womens mechanics in an NFHS game? Do you use all of the Women's mechanics?

No, but it the same mechanic. I have been using the punch for the last couple of years on player control foul and I am not saying its right, but I havent been told not to do it either. Anyway, I am glad they made the change.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why would you use NCAA Womens mechanics in an NFHS game? Do you use all of the Women's mechanics?

As much as I hate when officials blatantly ignore NF mechanics, I have to disagree with your position. The NF has not made it clear what sequence the signal is supposed to be used. Of course the NF has put the information how they want this to be covered through Referee Magazine, but when you look at actually NF books, there is almost no mention of the sequence or order is to make all those signals or when to use those signals. I think the NF is doing a terrible job to show something that is very easy to do. It is one thing to list a signal chart. If you have a sequence that you only want to be uses, why not make that clear in the signal chart?

Peace

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

As much as I hate when officials blatantly ignore NF mechanics, I have to disagree with your position. The NF has not made it clear what sequence the signal is supposed to be used. Of course the NF has put the information how they want this to be covered through Referee Magazine, but when you look at actually NF books, there is almost no mention of the sequence or order is to make all those signals or when to use those signals. I think the NF is doing a terrible job to show something that is very easy to do. It is one thing to list a signal chart. If you have a sequence that you only want to be uses, why not make that clear in the signal chart?

Peace

You are right, it will be a mess and the ones that have been doing it will keep on doing it and the ones that have never did it will have to make the change to do it. I am glad I am on the other side of things!

[tjones1]

According to Referee and their PlayPic (July 2006, page 72) here's the sequence to be used.

1. One-hand fist to indicate foul
2. Punch signal to designate team-control foul
3. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of foul (in the PlayPic, it's pushing)
4. Indicate spot for the designated-spot throw-in

I'd get used to it. I'd bet the farm this picture will be in the Basketball Guides with all the other changes. As we all know, Referee publishes these Guides for the NFHS, so I'd be very puzzled if something different was printed in the Guides the NFHS passes out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1) As much as I hate when officials blatantly ignore NF mechanics, I have to disagree with your position.

2) The NF has not made it clear what sequence the signal is supposed to be used. Of course the NF has put the information how they want this to be covered through Referee Magazine, but when you look at actually NF books, there is almost no mention of the sequence or order is to make all those signals or when to use those signals. I think the NF is doing a terrible job to show something that is very easy to do. It is one thing to list a signal chart. If you have a sequence that you only want to be uses, why not make that clear in the signal chart?

1) What position of mine are you disagreeing with? If you re-read my post, all I did was ask a few questions- without taking ANY position at all.

2) Say WHAT? The NFHS posted the exact signaling sequence on their website back in May. It's still posted there. That's noted in my post of Oct. 6. And as Z posted at the start of this thread, you can find the correct new signaling sequence laid out on page 72 of this year's rule book. Signal #4 followed by signal #34. The FED couldn't be any clearer imo.

[deecee]

after you have done micromanaging weather to blow-raise fist-point fist and call offensive versus blow-point-call-raise or whatever chain of events you chose make sure you actually remember to report and do some jumping jacks. I dont see what the huge deal is and why some people get so bent out of shape if somepeople just blow-point-yell offensive and some blow-raise-point-yell and some blow-raise-point and some blow-point-raise. Just make sure what you do is communicated with your partner and that the teams know what going on. me personally sometimes i might blow-point-yell and sometimes i might blow-raise-point-yell (by point of course i mean close fisted because the game might cease to exist if i forget that part).

flame me if you must but I dont see the big deal with blow-point-yell and blow-raise-point-yell. in the end get the call right, communicate and hustle. i personally dont care much about being off on a mechanic or not rather than being off in judgement and rule knowledge and application. IMO there are very few officials out there who are flawless at mechanics, rules knowledge and application, and game management. Usually I have learned and seen that out of those 4 most officials will be very good at 3 and not so good at 1. just the nature of the beast i suppose. I focus on the latter 3 and in time my mechanics will have to catch up. I am still working on rules and I am basically only really good at game management and decent at rules application and knowledge.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by deecee

after you have done micromanaging weather to blow-raise fist-point fist and call offensive versus blow-point-call-raise or whatever chain of events you chose make sure you actually remember to report and do some jumping jacks. I dont see what the huge deal is and why some people get so bent out of shape if somepeople just blow-point-yell offensive and some blow-raise-point-yell and some blow-raise-point and some blow-point-raise. Just make sure what you do is communicated with your partner and that the teams know what going on. me personally sometimes i might blow-point-yell and sometimes i might blow-raise-point-yell (by point of course i mean close fisted because the game might cease to exist if i forget that part).

flame me if you must but I dont see the big deal with blow-point-yell and blow-raise-point-yell. in the end get the call right, communicate and hustle. i personally dont care much about being off on a mechanic or not rather than being off in judgement and rule knowledge and application. IMO there are very few officials out there who are flawless at mechanics, rules knowledge and application, and game management. Usually I have learned and seen that out of those 4 most officials will be very good at 3 and not so good at 1. just the nature of the beast i suppose. I focus on the latter 3 and in time my mechanics will have to catch up. I am still working on rules and I am basically only really good at game management and decent at rules application and knowledge.

Nuf Said! I agree!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What position of mine are you disagreeing with? If you re-read my post, all I did was ask a few questions- without taking ANY position at all.

I am disagreeing with your position that it would be wrong to use the NCAA Mechanic when with all the information that has been given the NCAA Women's Mechanic and the NF mechanic are basically the same.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) Say WHAT? The NFHS posted the exact signaling sequence on their website back in May. It's still posted there. That's noted in my post of Oct. 6. And as Z posted at the start of this thread, you can find the correct new signaling sequence laid out on page 72 of this year's rule book. Signal #4 followed by signal #34. The FED couldn't be any clearer imo.

You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. What does not seemed to be clear to me and to many others, is do we completely eliminate the other signals (block, push, illegal use of hands) and use only the TC signal when calling a TC foul. The book in my opinion talks more about the using of this signal to eliminate confusion with a PC foul.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. Peace

Not exactly - the difference is the closed fist. In Fed., they want the closed fist in the air to signal a foul, then the "punch" to signal a team control foul. In NCAA-W, only the punch is used, not the fist in the air first. Subtle difference.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1) I am disagreeing with your position that it would be wrong to use the NCAA Mechanic when with all the information that has been given the NCAA Women's Mechanic and the NF mechanic are basically the same.

2)You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. What does not seemed to be clear to me and to many others, is do we completely eliminate the other signals (block, push, illegal use of hands) and use only the TC signal when calling a TC foul. The book in my opinion talks more about the using of this signal to eliminate confusion with a PC foul.

1) Would you care to point out exactly where I took that position in this thread? Or where I took any position in this thread?

2) You might not be aware either, but the complete foul reporting procedure is on P36 & 37 of the current NFHS Officials Manual. #231(d) on p.37 states that you only use a single signal for PC fouls. It doesn't mention using a single signal for TC fouls also, and there's nothing on the FED website that says anything different either. The FED couldn't be any clearer on what they want done imo. All you have to do really is read #230 and #231.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Not exactly - the difference is the closed fist. In Fed., they want the closed fist in the air to signal a foul, then the "punch" to signal a team control foul. In NCAA-W, only the punch is used, not the fist in the air first. Subtle difference.

You might be right, but when I did Women's basketball, the mechanic was to raise the hand. Many people did not follow the mechanic (surprise, surprise) and would go to the punch signal. That has been about 5 years ago so I would not be surprised if that has changed. It is not much different in the Men's game where you are supposed to use the stop clock for out of bounds plays, but people do not use that signal and just point.

Peace