Hand Checking guidelines

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I knew this for two reasons. Don Rutledge and I share the same last name. And the WNBA started after my first year of officiating. I had not yet developed an open opinion on Women's basketball. After the first WNBA season, I worked a 40+ varsity girl's basketball and about 20 varsity boys’ and it was clear which was most fun.
Peace

Don't worry, I won't tell the rest of the neanderthals around here about your secret love of the WNBA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Don't worry, I won't tell the rest of the neanderthals around here about your secret love of the WNBA.

I could not even tell you when the playoffs started. I cannot stand the NBA, but I at least watched a game or two in the playoffs.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I do also have to point out a little inconsistancy on your part. You made the comment, "Jim, I would ignore those guidelines completely for NFHS. Several of them are just plain wrong, including the armbars and "tagging" a defender." Well, in your previous post regarding a POE from a previous year:
2) The measuring up of an opponent(tagging) is hand checking, is not permitted, and is a foul.
So there.

M, I was trying to say that the GPBOA guidelines were wrong, not the FED's. The guidelines that GPBOA issued on their website and posted in the first post of this thread stated "The defensive player's actions of feeling for a screen that may be set to the side or rear is NOT a foul". Well, that, my friend, is a form of "tagging", and the NFHS says that sureashell IS a foul. The FED has been saying that for as long as I can remember too. This ain't the first time that the FED has issued a POE saying that a defender shouldn't be allowed to gain an advantage by feeling for screens, etc. Iow, that GPBOA statement is completely contrary to long-standing FED guidelines, including the one that I outlined in red above. Btw, we teach "warn and call" on that one.

You can either believe something right out of the NFHS rule book, or you can believe something that is posted on the GPBOA web site that is completely opposite. Me? I'm gonna go with the FED.

That's why I would personally ignore everything put out by the GPBOA.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

M, I was trying to say that the GPBOA guidelines were wrong, not the FED's. The guidelines that GPBOA issued on their website and posted in the first post of this thread stated "The defensive player's actions of feeling for a screen that may be set to the side or rear is NOT a foul". Well, that, my friend, is a form of "tagging", and the NFHS says that sureashell IS a foul. The FED has been saying that for as long as I can remember too. This ain't the first time that the FED has issued a POE saying that a defender shouldn't be allowed to gain an advantage by feeling for screens, etc. Iow, that GPBOA statement is completely contrary to long-standing FED guidelines, including the one that I outlined in red above. Btw, we teach "warn and call" on that one.

You can either believe something right out of the NFHS rule book, or you can believe something that is posted on the GPBOA web site that is completely opposite. Me? I'm gonna go with the FED.

That's why I would personally ignore everything put out by the GPBOA.

Well, your grumpiness, (or is your neanderthalness?) I'm not sure they are completely opposite. But, you know, we do actually agree in the fact that I wouldn't necessarily follow these guidelines for HS either. As far as the "tagging" line, I thought you were referencing the line that says, "It is a foul if a defender continually jabs an opponent." and saying that doesn't agree with the Fed. POE, when it does. That's all I was trying to point out.

I think this is an example of the what I've been lamenting on another thread - someone feeling they can expand on or change a Fed. ruling or mechanic because they think they know better. Whether or not it really is better is up for debate. But all it seems to do is present confusion. Someone can look at the Fed. books and see one set of guidelines for handchecking, then members of the GPBOA see their leaders' recommended guidelines. When in the GPBOA, do as GPBOA'ers, I guess. But why can't we all do it the same? Geesh!

[JRutledge]

Even if you use all the guidelines, it is about judgment. You cannot teach judgment no matter how many ways we talk about it. You either have it or you do not. You can give all the guidelines and what is a foul and what is not a foul and when the ball is tipped up judgment is going to take over.

This is why some guys get the big games and some do not. It comes down to your judgment and how consistent you can be with that judgment.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think this is an example of the what I've been lamenting on another thread - someone feeling they can expand on or change a Fed. ruling or mechanic because they think they know better. Whether or not it really is better is up for debate. But all it seems to do is present confusion. Someone can look at the Fed. books and see one set of guidelines for handchecking, then members of the GPBOA see their leaders' recommended guidelines. When in the GPBOA, do as GPBOA'ers, I guess. But why can't we all do it the same? Geesh!

I agree with that completely. That's why you'll probably never get call uniformity across the country too, in either the FED or NCAA jurisdictions. Different college conferences have different philosophies too, and these philosophies get handed down by their respective supervisors. What might be a foul in the WAC might not be a foul in the Big East.

When in Rome, roam.....

When in Cleveland,......

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

When in Rome, roam.....

When in Cleveland,......

Cleve?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Cleve?

No, leave....

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, your grumpiness, (or is your neanderthalness?) I'm not sure they are completely opposite. But, you know, we do actually agree in the fact that I wouldn't necessarily follow these guidelines for HS either. As far as the "tagging" line, I thought you were referencing the line that says, "It is a foul if a defender continually jabs an opponent." and saying that doesn't agree with the Fed. POE, when it does. That's all I was trying to point out.

I think this is an example of the what I've been lamenting on another thread - someone feeling they can expand on or change a Fed. ruling or mechanic because they think they know better. Whether or not it really is better is up for debate. But all it seems to do is present confusion. Someone can look at the Fed. books and see one set of guidelines for handchecking, then members of the GPBOA see their leaders' recommended guidelines. When in the GPBOA, do as GPBOA'ers, I guess. But why can't we all do it the same? Geesh!

I agree with Rut, basketball is a game that requires judgement on every play and unfortunately, judgement is not uniform even by the same person from moment to moment. So often on the site, I see posters looking for a " book definition" to make calls and it leads to all kinds of speculation and distorted versions/extreme examples of plays where this or that might happen. The rule book is a guideline to help make decisions.

One part of the rulebook that gets overlooked, is the part that refers to incidental contact, that is the by the book answer that can be most helpful. Not every bit of contact needs to be a foul. Automatic/blanket calls can ruin game flow and just put more attention on the officials if a call that "by definition" should be made and for some reason, it is not.

As far as "doing it the same," we can when it comes to mechanics, but that is about it, like it or not.

[btaylor64]

The guidelines are a modified version of the NBA guidelines for handchecking when above the free throw line extended. I love them and use them in my games. It causes for a more free flowing game and more scoring which is what everyone wants to see.

[Jimgolf]

Thanks everyone. This is a little confusing, but I understand that each official should be following the guidelines put out by their association or assigner. These Hand Checking guidelines are well written, but apparently not appropriate to NFHS.

What is unfortunate is that the articles on this site seem to be well-written and clear. If they were accurate, this would have been a good resource.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

The guidelines are a modified version of the NBA guidelines for handchecking when above the free throw line extended. I love them and use them in my games. It causes for a more free flowing game and more scoring which is what everyone wants to see.

Personally, I like to see tough defense. I'm not a fan of the NBA's philosophy that more scoring puts butts in the seats and makes the league profits rise. Thus they wrote their rules to favor the offense. Good for them, bad for basketball. In the NBA a team is better off to be down by a point, but have the ball with under 10 seconds remaining. In HS and college I believe that most teams would take the lead.

The NFHS has a couple of very nice thoughts in the Intent and Purpose of the Rules. They speak of creating a balance of play and equal opportunity for the offense and defense. In the NBA this no longer exists. Instead of a game in which scoring a basket is an accomplishment and something of value, the NBA has created one in which getting two points doesn't really mean much.

So what is with using these NBA guidelines in NFHS and NCAA games? Who are you to dictate the style of play by the teams and decide what "everyone" wants to see? If you want to officiate that way get into the D-League or the USBL and quit working the other levels.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Arm bars are not legal in NCAA-Men's basketball. Do not tell Z this; he might get upset if this is pointed out.

Peace

Arm Bars are illegal NCAA-M??? Does you TV get Big Ten or Big East games on ESPN, they let much worse than Arm Bars go!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RonRef

Arm Bars are illegal NCAA-M???

Yes, if the defender keeps it on, or if he prevents a post player of attaining/maintaining a legal offensive position. The NCAA rulesmakers want it called. Whether it actually is a whole 'nother matter.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Personally, I like to see tough defense. I'm not a fan of the NBA's philosophy that more scoring puts butts in the seats and makes the league profits rise. Thus they wrote their rules to favor the offense. Good for them, bad for basketball. In the NBA a team is better off to be down by a point, but have the ball with under 10 seconds remaining. In HS and college I believe that most teams would take the lead.

The NFHS has a couple of very nice thoughts in the Intent and Purpose of the Rules. They speak of creating a balance of play and equal opportunity for the offense and defense. In the NBA this no longer exists. Instead of a game in which scoring a basket is an accomplishment and something of value, the NBA has created one in which getting two points doesn't really mean much.

So what is with using these NBA guidelines in NFHS and NCAA games? Who are you to dictate the style of play by the teams and decide what "everyone" wants to see? If you want to officiate that way get into the D-League or the USBL and quit working the other levels.

Nevada, I don't see how this is not considered "a level playing field" for both sides. I agree that I like to see hard defense and that is why HS and college still have the 5-second closely guarded count, but there is no way that you can tell me that the handcheck guidelines in the NBA are not the purest form of basketball and how the game was supposed to be played. If you can't play hard defense without chucking a cutter to keep him from getting to his desired spot, or without putting a hand on a player's hip while he is driving to the hole and rerouting him in the process then the defensive foul should be called. Why is the offensive player being penalized for being quicker than the defender. Yes you have created a level playing field I guess. The offensive player had an advantage on his defender(faster than his defender) and you leveled the playing field by letting him slow him down by putting a hand on him. By calling these plays early you have set a precedent and almost all of the games I have had where we take care of this, there was less whining, more points, and a much smoother game. This is what I was taught, it might not be what you were taught or what you like and I understand, and that is why it is so hard to officiate because night in and night out your crew has to be on the same page and that requires nights for me to either adjust with my crew or on some nights to get the crew to adjust to me.

Officiating!!! Don't you love it!