off ball hand checking again

[Rbn3]

I asked this a couple of years ago, but need more advice. We now have had "hand checking" as a POE for three straight years. The use of hands "off-ball" on defense continues to be vexing to me. This year they speak of "jabbing" instead of "tagging" and they emphasize "continuous touch." In years past they have explicitly said hand checking is not incidental and is a foul, etc. The verbiage does not restrict this to the ball handler and explicitly the POE says the location on the floor is irrelevent (i.e., post versus perimeter).

When is the use of the hands legal off the ball, if ever? Can a defender who is fronting the post reach back and tag the offensive player find him? The defender is not trying to "displace" the offensive man or hold him, but he is obviously touching to gain an advantage. If the defender can touch, can the offense push the hand away?

I interprete the rules and POE's to prohibit all "touching" that is intentional, non-incidental and designed to gain an advantage. I know officials are rightfully loath to call "touch" fouls, but should they consistently instruct defenders to cease hand tagging to find the offense?

[JRutledge]

This is where you judgment has to come in. You also have to use some logic and common sense as well. You cannot call and it is not to your benefit to call a foul on players that just touch each other. There has to be some kind of displacement. And if I am not mistaken, handchecking only has to do with the ball carrier, not the "off-ball" player.

Really what is legal and illegal is up to you and your partners. Without seeing the particular play, it is not good judgment to just call players touching each other.

Peace

[CYO Butch]

Originally posted by JRutledge
This is where you judgment has to come in. You also have to use some logic and common sense as well. You cannot call and it is not to your benefit to call a foul on players that just touch each other. There has to be some kind of displacement. And if I am not mistaken, handchecking only has to do with the ball carrier, not the "off-ball" player.

Really what is legal and illegal is up to you and your partners. Without seeing the particular play, it is not good judgment to just call players touching each other.

Peace

Rut, I concur that displacement should be the key, and I also concur that "it is not good judgment to just call players touching each other." This is great advice, and I hope that all officials, coaches, and players follow it.

I take exception, however, to your statement that "what is legal and illegal is up to you and your partners." This may reflect the reality of a given game, but is along the same vein as "the only crime is getting caught." Officials cannot (and I have not seen anything from posters here to indicate that this community does) treat questions of legality and illegality as subject to their own whims. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that officials can make up the rules as they go along, and that as long as they agree among themselves it is ok, but that is kind of what your statement sounded like. If one set of officials feel that "touches" are illegal and call it that way, then another set deems that displacement and advantage is required, then what is the use of rules? Coaches, players, and even partners would be forced to guess about many, many situations in every game. It would be worse than trying to guess an umpire's strike zone in baseball.

Hand-checking is a perfect example of how things can get ambiguous very quickly. The wording in the POEs have not been as good as they should be, and it seems to take about half a season for sanity and consistency to work its way in to the games. Discussions about it, as started on this thread, are a great way to clarify and alleviate the confusion.

[zebraman]

Displacement might not be the right word. It's pretty obvious that a defender could gain a big advantage against the dribbler without actually displacing him/her. If you think the defender is gaining an unfair advantage by using the hands, it's a foul. Think of a defender using hands to prevent a dribbling player from "turning the corner" on a drive. No displacement, but definitely a foul. The POE implies that in general, the NFHS believes that officials have been letting too much hand use go uncalled. The rule book can only go so far in describing a foul or it would become larger than a school text book.

Z

[JRutledge]

CYO Butch,

Everyone's judgment is different. What is considered displacement one night, might be conconsidered fine the next night. And that is the nature of the beast. Especially when you talk about the baseball comparison. I am a baseball umpire and my strike zone is not the same as others strike zones. Umpires positioning, philosophy and ability can all factor in the differences of just a strike zone. So what is a strike or how much a pitch is considered a strike can vary from game to game. No differnet from a baskeball official's perspective (or any sport for that matter). What is displacement is going to vary from team to team, player to player and official to official. So my comment, "you have to decide what is legal and illegal," is just to say that I might call one thing a foul, the next time that might not be called. And depending on the skill of the players and the type of game I have, displacement is going to vary from time to time. The only thing I can add is call the game the first 4-6 minutes how you are going to call the game the entire game. Or at the very least, call all the handchecking, screens, rebounding fouls to set a tone, so that you will not have to call that when the game is on the line. It is the job of the players and coaches to adjust to us, not the other way around. For one, I cannot call the game based on what happen during a game I did not see or officiate myself. No one can.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Displacement might not be the right word. It's pretty obvious that a defender could gain a big advantage against the dribbler without actually displacing him/her. If you think the defender is gaining an unfair advantage by using the hands, it's a foul. Think of a defender using hands to prevent a dribbling player from "turning the corner" on a drive. No displacement, but definitely a foul.
Z

What if the defender is not successful in using there hands? Are you going to take away a successful basket or attempt, just because the defender used their hands? I am still going to require some displacement or some kind of movement before I call a foul. You cannot just call a foul based on what the defender is trying to do, you have to call it based on what they have accomplished. The words displacment accurately IMHO, make that clearer to what is a foul. But it is really easy to use words to discribe what is a foul or not, you still have to prove that on the court.

Peace

[zebraman]

I'm not sure what a better word might be than displacement. I have heard camp instructors say a foul should be called when a defender uses their hands to control an offensive player. so maybe control would be a better word. When I think of displacement, I think of a defender actually moving an offensive player out of a spot and I can think of situations that would be a handchecking foul where the offensive player did not actually get moved.

Obviously you wouldn't take away a basket if the offensive player played through the contact, but that has to do with being able to hold your whistle.

Z

[FBullock]

I agree that control is part of the equation. It's really several terms. Control, advantage, imped, restrict and probably several more. Ask yourself, he committing an unbasketball and does it but the offended play at disadvantage?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by FBullock
Ask yourself, he committing an unbasketball and does it but the offended play at disadvantage?

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, help me out with that statement.

[FBullock]

I agree that control is part of the equation. It's really several terms. Control, advantage, imped, restrict and probably several more. Ask yourself,IS he committing an unbasketball ACT and does it PUT the offended play at disadvantage? (Makes more sense when I learn to spell don't type to fast.)

I also agree that you don't have hand checking if the player doesn't have the ball. You can have holding or blocking.

I think one of the big thinks that helps me with advantange/disadvantge, handchecking, etc. is video tape review & watching others work. Watch what those that are working at the next level are calling as fouls. If you know those folks, don't be afraid to call, e-mail whatever, and ask them about a play. Why was such and such a foul and the other play not?

Hope this is clearer

[JRutledge]

I really do not see how any of that language makes the situation clearer, but if it works for someone to have better understanding, then use it. Displacement to me just suggests that I am unable to do what I was trying to do. So it really does not take a lot of contact to have displacement. But if we are talking about off ball, displacement is the best language I can come up with to discribe what should be called. Because there is usually more contact allowed off-ball, especially when the players are both fighting for position. And just because a player is leaning on another player, does not mean you have a foul. Maybe we are talking about a Shaq type specimen and you are not going to easily move that individual in the post.

But that is 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, help me out with that statement.

It's simple, really. He got it from the instructions for assembling a bike made in Hong Kong.

[jbduke]

A little bit of additional terminology might clarify the issue for some people: rather than using 'displacement' as the catch-all term, using 'impede' and 're-route' might be more appropriate in some instances.

[Mark Padgett]

Maybe we should think of hand checking in the same way as the definition of a "yield" traffic sign. You haven't "yielded" if you caused the other car to change its speed and/or direction. If you run the sign, but haven't caused the other car to change at least one of those things, technically you "yielded". A yield sign is not the same as a stop sign. The stop sign would be a good analogy only if we were supposed to call all hand contact as a foul.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, help me out with that statement.

Not sure if what he is talking about when he says unbasketball ACT, but we do talk about things as being "non-basketball plays" around these hear parts, maybe it's the same thing, I dunno.