Wrong team gets ball

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I was working with a newer guy last year who, in his haste, put the ball in play with 6 on the floor. I had my hand up as I knew they hadn't completed the substitution and he didn't make eye contact with me.

I agressively stopped play (the ball MIGHT have come onto the floor) and I had one of the players sent off. No technical, no complaining either.

A gross error on the part of the officials in managing the game shouldn't penalize either team.

I agree. Completely. And that would be the right thing to do.

But it's not the same as a sitch where no one noticed the mistake until after a shot had been taken by the other team. At that point, we are told exactly what to do, and we have to do it. THere's no judgment, common sense or anything else involved. Rules knowledge is important. That doesn't have to exclude the possibility of being able to admit I'm wrong. But when the rules are specific about how to handle a certain sitch, that's what we're there for. Otherwise, there's no point having rules at all.

When my evaluators are watching, they're seeing a team. If my partner goofs up, it's my fault too. If I goof up, we both look bad. So in this situation, if it's me that gave the ball to the wrong team, I'm gonna hustle over and apologize to the coach, explain the rule, and then get the ball into play. And you're going to have egg on your face too, but you've got to back me up. Period. If you're the one who let the wrong inbounder have the ball, I'm going to try to stop you from having a do-over. But if you insist, then I'm going to have egg on my face same as you. But it'll be two eggs, not one because now we've goofed twice.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I agree. Completely. And that would be the right thing to do.

But it's not the same as a sitch where no one noticed the mistake until after a shot had been taken by the other team. At that point, we are told exactly what to do, and we have to do it. THere's no judgment, common sense or anything else involved. Rules knowledge is important. That doesn't have to exclude the possibility of being able to admit I'm wrong. But when the rules are specific about how to handle a certain sitch, that's what we're there for. Otherwise, there's no point having rules at all.

When my evaluators are watching, they're seeing a team. If my partner goofs up, it's my fault too. If I goof up, we both look bad. So in this situation, if it's me that gave the ball to the wrong team, I'm gonna hustle over and apologize to the coach, explain the rule, and then get the ball into play. And you're going to have egg on your face too, but you've got to back me up. Period. If you're the one who let the wrong inbounder have the ball, I'm going to try to stop you from having a do-over. But if you insist, then I'm going to have egg on my face same as you. But it'll be two eggs, not one because now we've goofed twice.

Now you're picking and choosing the rules you want to enforce. By the letter of the rule, the ball became live when the throw-in official handed the ball to the player. We do what we gotta do.

IMO, black-and-white "rulebook" officials bring a lot of problems upon themselves. Those who see all the gray are much more successful.

Z

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by zebraman

Now you're picking and choosing the rules you want to enforce. By the letter of the rule, the ball became live when the throw-in official handed the ball to the player. We do what we gotta do.

IMO, black-and-white "rulebook" officials bring a lot of problems upon themselves. Those who see all the gray are much more successful.

Z

I"M picking and choosing?!?!? What rule have I "picked and chosen" here? I'm baffled!

See Case 7.5.2. You're saying it's okay for Rich to go against that?!

Please don't give me the routine about "rulebook" officials bringing problems on themselves. That's just hogwash.


[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 07:20 PM]

[zebraman]

Originally posted by rainmaker


I"M picking and choosing?!?!? What rule have I "picked and chosen" here? I'm baffled!

See Case 7.5.2. You're saying it's okay for Rich to go against that?!

Please don't give me the routine about "rulebook" officials bringing problems on themselves. That's just hogwash.


[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 07:20 PM]

You supported ignoring the T for the 6 players but insist that you must enforce the rule for giving the ball to the wrong team. I suppose you've never chosen common sense over a specific rule? Hogwash yourself. We all do it. But that's different because we have to walk a mile in our own shoes.

How many T's did you call for an elbow that hit nothing but air before they changed that rule to a violation? If you called a bunch, you were the only one I know enforcing that rule regularly.

Z

[Jesse James]

Originally posted by zebraman

If three officials let this happen in a game at a state tournament, they are all committing career suicide no matter how they choose to try to solve it.

Z

Not everywhere. Had the exact situation in Indiana last season-Sectional final Cascade vs Cloverdale. Cascade was incorrectly given the ball for inbounds after a time-out, and advanced to half-court before the officials noticed their error. They killed the play, reset the clock, and then gave Cloverdale possession. Sad part is that scenario wouldn't crack the top 3 in official errors at that tournament for the week. Two of the three officials advanced to regional games the next week.

Indiana has problems.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by zebraman

You supported ignoring the T for the 6 players but insist that you must enforce the rule for giving the ball to the wrong team. I suppose you've never chosen common sense over a specific rule? Hogwash yourself. We all do it. But that's different because we have to walk a mile in our own shoes.

How many T's did you call for an elbow that hit nothing but air before they changed that rule to a violation? If you called a bunch, you were the only one I know enforcing that rule regularly.

Z

6 players? Who's talking about 6 players? I thought the subject was a throw-in by the wrong team?

I rarely choose "common sense" over a rule. Even when I do something that isn't in the rule book, it's according to my interpreter. I find that common sense varies from person to person and is not to be relied on. The rules as interpreted locally are much more solid footing.

In fact, yes, I have given T's for the elbows, and for 6 on the floor, and I've apologized for not being able to have a do-over on giving the ball to the wrong team. And if anyone ever complained to my assignor that I was being "a rulebook official" he said, "Good. That's what we work toward."

But none of that answers my question to you. Am I picking and choosing? You didn't give any specifics. And you said nothing about my case book reference. The sitch at the beginning of this thread is described exactly in the case book, and the clear answer is there, too. There's nothing gray about it.

[Rich]

Originally posted by rainmaker

6 players? Who's talking about 6 players? I thought the subject was a throw-in by the wrong team?

I rarely choose "common sense" over a rule. Even when I do something that isn't in the rule book, it's according to my interpreter. I find that common sense varies from person to person and is not to be relied on. The rules as interpreted locally are much more solid footing.

In fact, yes, I have given T's for the elbows, and for 6 on the floor, and I've apologized for not being able to have a do-over on giving the ball to the wrong team. And if anyone ever complained to my assignor that I was being "a rulebook official" he said, "Good. That's what we work toward."

But none of that answers my question to you. Am I picking and choosing? You didn't give any specifics. And you said nothing about my case book reference. The sitch at the beginning of this thread is described exactly in the case book, and the clear answer is there, too. There's nothing gray about it.

Sometimes choosing the gray is better than choosing the black and white. That's how I read what zebraman posted.

I see this happened in Indiana. Maybe those officials have problems, but I applaud how they handled the specific situation mentioned here. It's fair and it's equitable, regardless of case 17.58.21.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by rainmaker


6 players? Who's talking about 6 players? I thought the subject was a throw-in by the wrong team?


Rich cited another case where he chose to not call a T for 6 players on the floor. Your response was "I agree. Completely. And that would be the right thing to do." I agree too.... even though it goes against the specific rule which says to call a T on a team if they have 6 players on the floor during a live ball.


I rarely choose "common sense" over a rule.


Key word being "rarely." That is exactly my point. I rarely do too.


Even when I do something that isn't in the rule book, it's according to my interpreter.


Interpreter's don't cover every once-in-a-lifetime situation. Sometimes you have to crawl out on that ledge by your lonesome.


I find that common sense varies from person to person and is not to be relied on. The rules as interpreted locally are much more solid footing.


Yes, common sense does vary from one to another. Anyone can call fouls and violations. It's that common sense and game management that provides separation between officials.


In fact, yes, I have given T's for the elbows, and for 6 on the floor, and I've apologized for not being able to have a do-over on giving the ball to the wrong team. And if anyone ever complained to my assignor that I was being "a rulebook official" he said, "Good. That's what we work toward."


Yikes. I put a high value on rule knowledge, but I know what "rulebook official" means and it isn't a good thing.


But none of that answers my question to you. Am I picking and choosing? You didn't give any specifics.


Just relating back to your own post.


And you said nothing about my case book reference. The sitch at the beginning of this thread is described exactly in the case book, and the clear answer is there, too. There's nothing gray about it.


Like I already said, I don't know a single official that hasn't varied from the rules in weird and once-in-a-lifetime circumstances. Is it right or wrong? I guess you can't know unless you were there.

Have a nice evening. Gotta go train some newbies. I'll try not to screw them up too bad.

Z

[rainmaker]

Zebra -- It's clear we aren't communicating. If your newbies are screwed up too bad, they can come down here and get straightened out.