NCAA (3 second violation)

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Ok, I'm with you so far. How do you go from that to "you can't have a 3-second violation during a throw-in"?

WTF??

Rule 9, under Three Second Rule, 2005 version:

A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Rule 9, under Three Second Rule, 2005 version:

A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation.

But as soon as the throw-in is released toward the court, that team is no longer in control for a throw-in adjacent to the frontcourt.

Isn't that the whole issue here? We all know that there's team control. The question is whether the exception that you quoted above applies to the duration of the throw-in or only to the period of time when the ball is at the disposal of, or in the hands of, the inbounder.

Is it really clear and I'm just muddying the waters? It just doesn't seem to be cut-and-dried to me from the rules that have been quoted so far.

And just to make my position perfectly clear, I think you're right in that the NCAA position is that you can't have a 3-second violation during a throw-in. But it just isn't spelled out very well in the rulebook.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

But as soon as the throw-in is released toward the court, that team is no longer in control for a throw-in adjacent to the frontcourt.

Now I know you're just trolling.

If team control ended when you say it does how could you have a 3 second violaton?

In any event what you wrote here is wrong. Team control applies until the throw-in is completed, which does not happen until the ball is controlled by a player on court. A 3 sec violation does not apply during the throw-in. You cannot arbitrarily decree that the team is no longer in control for a throw-in adjacent to the frontcourt when the ball is released.

Well, you can, but you would be as wrong as if you decreed that team control ends when the player lifted his left foot.

Bye.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Now I know you're just trolling.

I swear I'm not. I just want to get it all straight in my head.

If team control ended when you say it does how could you have a 3 second violaton?

I never said team control ended. We all know that there is team control for the throwing team until the ball is controlled on the court (or until the ball becomes dead).

You cannot arbitrarily decree that the team is no longer in control for a throw-in adjacent to the frontcourt when the ball is released.

Once the throw-in is released, the team is no longer in control for a throw-in are they? How can they be? They've already thrown it in. That's my point; not that control ends. But they're not in control OOB for the throw-in. And the rule says you can't call it while they're in control for the throw-in OOB adjacent to the frontcourt.

They no longer have control for the throw-in. Is that distinction simply insane?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I swear I'm not. I just want to get it all straight in my head.

I never said team control ended. We all know that there is team control for the throwing team until the ball is controlled on the court (or until the ball becomes dead).

Once the throw-in is released, the team is no longer in control for a throw-in are they? How can they be?

I think team control for the throw-in ends when the throw-in player lifts his left foot.

It's either that or it ends when the rule book sez it ends: when a player controls the passed ball on court.

You decide.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I think team control for the throw-in ends when the throw-in player lifts his left foot.

It's either that or it ends when the rule book sez it ends: when a player controls the passed ball on court.

You decide.

Now you're trolling. That's not my point and you know it. Fine. I'll ignore the wording and just answer based on what I know it should be.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Now you're trolling. That's not my point and you know it. Fine. I'll ignore the wording and just answer based on what I know it should be.

*The wording* is precise, consistent & unambiguous.

I suppose your point is the rule is not clear enough. You have decided to misread it to re-define when the team control ends on the throw-in. You cannot muster an argument other than "it's confusing to me".

Using that argument I propose you change your re-definition to when the throw-in player lifts his left foot. It's just as logical.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
You have decided to misread it to re-define when the team control ends on the throw-in.

AAAAUUUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! No. That's not what I'm saying at all. And I've already said a couple of times that I'm not saying that. We all know that team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounding team. And it continues until the opponent secures control or until the ball becomes dead or until a try or tap is released. I get it.

The rule says "A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation."

You stop reading at "in control of the ball". My point is that if all they cared about was team control, which is how you're reading it, then why did they include the phrase "for a throw-in"? Why not just say "A team in control of the ball may not be called for a 3-second violation before the throw-in has ended"? That's what you're claiming the rule says -- and what I readily grant is what the rule should say -- so why did they use the phrase "in control for a throw-in"? Could it possibly mean "while the inbounder is holding the ball"?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

AAAAUUUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! No. That's not what I'm saying at all. And I've already said a couple of times that I'm not saying that. We all know that team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounding team. And it continues until the opponent secures control or until the ball becomes dead or until a try or tap is released. I get it.

The rule says "A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation."

You stop reading at "in control of the ball". My point is that if all they cared about was team control, which is how you're reading it, then why did they include the phrase "for a throw-in"?

No, that is exactly how I am NOT reading it. They care about team control during the throw-in. They care about it then because that is exactly when the 3 second rule is suspended.

Why not just say "A team in control of the ball may not be called for a 3-second violation before the throw-in has ended"? That's what you're claiming the rule says -- and what I readily grant is what the rule should say -- so why did they use the phrase "in control for a throw-in"? Could it possibly mean "while the inbounder is holding the ball"?

No, it could not. Just as it could not possibly mean "while the inbounder has not lifted his left foot". I say that because "in control for a throw-in" is equivalent to "before the throw-in has ended". Why are they equivalent? Because team control for the throw-in ends exactly when the throw-in ends.

Neither of these is in any way equivalent to "while the inbounder is holding the ball".