Kick or Fist

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I've always been curious about this. What IS the purpose of this rule?

Safety.

Don't want players flailing away at the ball, missing, and possibly hitting another player.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
On the "kick", there is nothing to call. I can't think of any violation that can be committed during a dead ball.

On the "fist", it could technically be a violation but I'm not going to call it. That's not the purpose of the rule.

Camron,

I don't have anything here..I agree that only an OOO would make this call. However, why do you aver that this is a "dead ball" situation? The original post was after a made basket.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by tmp44

Camron,

I don't have anything here..I agree that only an OOO would make this call. However, why do you aver that this is a "dead ball" situation? The original post was after a made basket.

Because the ball is dead between the time it drops through the net until the time the throwin begins. If one player is kicking the ball to the thrower, I doubt the throwin has begun.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Because the ball is dead between the time it drops through the net until the time the throwin begins. If one player is kicking the ball to the thrower, I doubt the throwin has begun.

I have no problem with any official who makes a concious decision not to make either of these calls. I asked the original question to get feedback on how most people feel about these little violations. Each individual has to make their own choices on how to manage a game.

However, I do have an issue if an official doesn't make a call for the wrong reason. In this case, I have to disagree with Camron and insist that by rule the ball is live when the player kicks it to his teammate.

RULE 4 -- SECTION 41 THROW-IN, THROWER, DESIGNATED SPOT
ART. 1 . . . The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
ART. 2 . . . A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.
ART. 3 . . . The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

RULE 4 -- SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 7 . . . A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:

a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal.

Since A1 is kicking the ball to his teammate A2 the ball is obviously available to A1. Thus the ball is at the disposal of a A1.
Further, from 4-41-3 we know that the ball doesn't have to be at the disposal of the thrower, but merely ANY player of the throwing team for the throw-in and throw-in count to begin.
Therefore, the time during which the ball was dead after the goal has passed and the ball is live at the time of the kick.

As an official the only decision is whether or not you are going to call it.

[SeanFitzRef]

No call on either, NevadaRef. Although you bring up solid rules citations, sometimes common sense should prevail over the "letter of the law".

The player kicking the ball to his teammate is actually doing the officials a favor by keeping the game flowing.

The other player is putting his team at risk, because it is quite difficult to guide the path of a 'fisted' pass. If the other team gets the ball and scores a layup because of his indiscretion, are you going to penalize them by making a call and stopping their play?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I have no problem with any official who makes a concious decision not to make either of these calls. I asked the original question to get feedback on how most people feel about these little violations. Each individual has to make their own choices on how to manage a game.

However, I do have an issue if an official doesn't make a call for the wrong reason. In this case, I have to disagree with Camron and insist that by rule the ball is live when the player kicks it to his teammate.

RULE 4 -- SECTION 41 THROW-IN, THROWER, DESIGNATED SPOT
ART. 1 . . . The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
ART. 2 . . . A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.
ART. 3 . . . The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

RULE 4 -- SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 7 . . . A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:

a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal.

Since A1 is kicking the ball to his teammate A2 the ball is obviously available to A1. Thus the ball is at the disposal of a A1.
Further, from 4-41-3 we know that the ball doesn't have to be at the disposal of the thrower, but merely ANY player of the throwing team for the throw-in and throw-in count to begin.
Therefore, the time during which the ball was dead after the goal has passed and the ball is live at the time of the kick.

As an official the only decision is whether or not you are going to call it.

That's absolutely absurd.

If you're going to do that, you'll be calling a throwin violation every time a player picks up the ball inbounds and tosses the ball to a teammate who is or is heading OOB for the throwin since the first player has stepped inbounds on the throwin.

What if, after the bucket, A1 catches and tosses it to B1 to relay it to A2 who is OOB for the throwin? By your argument, the ball is live when B1 is holding the ball inbounds. B1 should shoot...live ball inbounds!

What if A1 is throwing it to A2 who is OOB for the throwin? If the ball is live, B2 could intercept this pass before it got the A2 (on the inbounds side of the throwin plane) and shoot the ball?

For that matter, A1, being inbounds, could just take off with the ball if he's holding a live ball inbounds...no need for a throwin.

The question not answered is could A1, if A1 picked up the ball at that moment and spot, make a legal throw in? If the answer is no, then the throwin has not begin. The ball is still dead.

I've presented situation after situation that clearly shows that the ball can not become live simply by a player picking up the ball.

Disposal and available mean that the ball is in a position or should be in a position where it could be legally thrown in.

[BktBallRef]

Sorry Camron but I have to disagree with you. The rule is very clear. The ball is live when it's available to any player on the throwing team. That's black and white, straight out of the rule book. The rule doesn't say that it becomes live when the thrower is holding the ball. In fact, the case play is contrary to your statements.

4.41.3 SITUATION: Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) deflected under the bleachers; (b) lying on the court just outside the end line; or (c) deflected inbounds but the official has retrieved it and placed it on the floor outside the end line. When does the throw-in begin? RULING: In (a), the throw-in will not begin until the ball is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the ball becomes live and the throw-in and throw-in count begin when the ball is available or has been placed on the floor at the disposal of Team B. (4-4-7)

I'm not going to call a kicking violation in this situation but you're dead wrong if you contend that the ball is dead until the thrower is holding it.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 7th, 2005 at 01:28 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Sorry Camron but I have to disagree with you. The rule is very clear. The ball is live when it's available to any player on the throwing team. That's black and white, straight out of the rule book. The rule doesn't say that it becomes live when the thrower is holding the ball. In fact, the case play is contrary to your statements.

4.41.3 SITUATION: Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) deflected under the bleachers; (b) lying on the court just outside the end line; or (c) deflected inbounds but the official has retrieved it and placed it on the floor outside the end line. When does the throw-in begin? RULING: In (a), the throw-in will not begin until the ball is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the ball becomes live and the throw-in and throw-in count begin when the ball is available or has been placed on the floor at the disposal of Team B. (4-4-7)

I'm not going to call a kicking violation in this situation but you're dead wrong if you contend that the ball is dead until the thrower is holding it.

What if team A tried to call a TO in (b) or (c)after the ball became live but no B player had ever touched it? Would you grant it?

[BktBallRef]

Sure I'd grant it. Not saying that I call it by the letter of the law. As I said, I certainly wouldn't call a kicking violation just because the ball is live. But the ball is live.

I think we're discussing the actual rule here, not practical application. Camron's interp is that the ball is not live until the thrower has it. That's completely contrary to the rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Sure I'd grant it. Not saying that I call it by the letter of the law. As I said, I certainly wouldn't call a kicking violation just because the ball is live. But the ball is live.

I think we're discussing the actual rule here, not practical application. Camron's interp is that the ball is not live until the thrower has it. That's completely contrary to the rule.

Gasp. You'd grant a TO request to one team when the ball is at the disposal of the other team? ()

Btw, I certainly agree with your position on Cameron's interp. Pretty definitive language he's ignoring.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Sorry Camron but I have to disagree with you. The rule is very clear. The ball is live when it's available to any player on the throwing team. That's black and white, straight out of the rule book. The rule doesn't say that it becomes live when the thrower is holding the ball. In fact, the case play is contrary to your statements.

4.41.3 SITUATION: Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) deflected under the bleachers; (b) lying on the court just outside the end line; or (c) deflected inbounds but the official has retrieved it and placed it on the floor outside the end line. When does the throw-in begin? RULING: In (a), the throw-in will not begin until the ball is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the ball becomes live and the throw-in and throw-in count begin when the ball is available or has been placed on the floor at the disposal of Team B. (4-4-7)

I'm not going to call a kicking violation in this situation but you're dead wrong if you contend that the ball is dead until the thrower is holding it.

I agree completely with the rule as you state it and the case play.

It's the definition of disposal and available that is under debate. In every part the case you cite, the ball becomes live when it is in a position where a legal throwin could be made.

It's not avaiable or at their disposal until they can get it into a postion to make use of the ball.

Again, if it's live once they pick it up. Then the other team is free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball. The player that picks up the ball has also committed a throwin violation by stepping inbounds with a live ball.

I'm not ignoring any language at all. We have no explicit definition in NFHS rules on what available and disposal mean. I'm using basic English definitions. If they can't make a legal throwin from the spot where they pick up the ball, the ball is not available for a throwin. They player has to take it to a spot to make it available for the throwin.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Sure I'd grant it. Not saying that I call it by the letter of the law. As I said, I certainly wouldn't call a kicking violation just because the ball is live. But the ball is live.

I think we're discussing the actual rule here, not practical application. Camron's interp is that the ball is not live until the thrower has it. That's completely contrary to the rule.

No, your point of view is completely contrary to several rules. Yours is based solely on what you claim is the definition of available and disposal while it's fully inconsistent with numerous rules as I've pointed it.

Mine is based on every case play and rule presented. EVERY case covering disposal covers when an official declares it so after the players delay starting the throwin or when the ball is in a position where a legal throwin could be made. Not one of them says anything close to the ball being live when B2 picks up the ball at the FT line and is jogging to the endline.

The definitions of available and dispoal include usable. Can the ball be used for a throwin when it is picked up at the FT line? Not legally.

In fact, the NCAA rule can be used for clarification. The definitions of the throwin are identical and they add the clarifying note that the ball is not live until the player has it OOB.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 7th, 2005 at 02:49 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
It's not available or at their disposal until they can get it into a postion to make use of the ball.

Do you disagree with the case book which says that when the ball is placed on the floor at the team's disposal, the ball is live? If I grab the ball and place it on the floor or it's sitting on the floor after a goal, it's at the disposal and therefore live, whether anyone is in "a postion to make use of the ball" or not.

I believe that NVRef's contention is that if A1 is close enough to kick the ball, then the ball is "available or at their disposal." I would agree with that.

Again, if it's live once they pick it up. Then the other team is free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball. The player that picks up the ball has also committed a throwin violation by stepping inbounds with a live ball.

C'mon Camron, you can do better than that. You know that any actions along that lines would be delay of game (10-1-5b, "Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"). Why does you keep posting that? That would be an obvious delay of game.

I'm not ignoring any language at all. We have no explicit definition in NFHS rules on what available and disposal mean. I'm using basic English definitions. If they can't make a legal throwin from the spot where they pick up the ball, the ball is not available for a throwin. They player has to take it to a spot to make it available for the throwin.

Sorry but that ain't what the rule book says. I agree that this is the way we all enforce it, unless a team is trying to delay and burn some clock. But that's not what the rule states.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

I'm not ignoring any language at all. We have no explicit definition in NFHS rules on what available and disposal mean.
[/B][/QUOTE]Then what makes you so right and Blind Zebra so wrong then, if the NFHS rules definitions aren't explicit?

Don't you think that a better statement by both of you might be "in my opinion....."?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Again, if it's live once they pick it up. Then the other team is free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball.

No, "the other team is" NOT "free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball." That's interfering with the throw-in and it's a warning or technical foul, depending on the sitch. Just because the ball is live, and available, doesn't mean that the other team can touch it. Otherwise, a free throw would be meaningless.