Interesting Situation...and unfortunate

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Yup, 1.94 seconds when the official made a mistake by chopping the clock in prematurely. Just like BZ has been telling you for days. There was no timer error to correct. Now that we have that out of the way, hopefully, please cite a rule that says we can correct the official's mistake.

Lah me. [/B]

So, you're telling us the clock was properly started in this case?

Please provide a rule to back up your argument that it is proper to start the clock in this sitch. [/B][/QUOTE]Rule 5-9-1--"After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in". Didn't the official signal time-in in this case? Didn't the timer, using the direction provided by this rule, then properly start the clock on the official's signal? Ergo..official's mistake, not a timer's mistake.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tomegun
Wow, I guess between someone interrupting me and the whole back and forth I don't even know which side I agree with. I do know that I would put the time on the clock and go from there. I cannot go into the locker room knowing that I made a mistake that didn't allow a team to try for a win. I don't even want to mention any rules here because that has been done enough I would scratch my head if an assigner or rules interpreter had a problem with me for doing this.

One thing I find funny about this whole post is BZ has been done with it about 4 times!

Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

So, you're telling us the clock was properly started in this case?

Please provide a rule to back up your argument that it is proper to start the clock in this sitch. [/B]

Rule 5-9-1--"After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in". Didn't the official signal time-in in this case? Didn't the timer, using the direction provided by this rule, then properly start the clock on the official's signal? Ergo..official's mistake, not a timer's mistake. [/B][/QUOTE]

Under what rule is the official authorized to signal the clock be started?

What if he tells the timer to start the game clock as he walks off to start the half. We gonna start the second half with 10:00 (6:00 4th qtr for HS) on the clock?

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree, you can't correct the time unless you have specific knowledge of what to reset it to. However, the original post said there was 1.94 seconds left when they had the ball out of bounds so we do know specifically what to reset the clock to. Thus, reset the clock to that time and start again. [/B]

Yup, 1.94 seconds when the official made a mistake by chopping the clock in prematurely. Just like BZ has been telling you for days. There was no timer error to correct. Now that we have that out of the way, hopefully, please cite a rule that says we can correct the official's mistake.

Lah me. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree. Everyone agrees that we knew the exact time before the play started. Everyone agrees that the official was at fault. Everyone agrees that it wasn't a timer's error because the timer responded to the official's signal. We've never disagreed on any of these points. The disagreement is whether an official's error can be corrected. As I've stated several times, 2-5-5 states that the referee can "correct obvious TIMING<\b> errors." It doesn't say "timer's" errors.

Now that I've stated my rule reference, can someone state their rule book reference that state's that an official's error can't be corrected? I concede the statement in the case book. However, it is being taken out of context. It is from a comment where the rest of the paragraph is talking about "lag" time. It is trying to illustrate that, even though the clock may be started or stopped properly, "lag" time may exist and itisn't to be considered a "timer's mistake" and, thus, can't be corrected. In addition, the comment is clarifying a situation that doesn't include an official's error. Furthermore, the Ruule that the case is referencing doesn't say anything about not being able to correct an official's error. If we couldn't correct an official's error, it would be stated in the rule book, not only in a comment in the case book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Maverick

Yup, 1.94 seconds when the official made a mistake by chopping the clock in prematurely. Just like BZ has been telling you for days. There was no timer error to correct. Now that we have that out of the way, hopefully, please cite a rule that says we can correct the official's mistake.

Lah me. [/B]

Yes, I agree. Everyone agrees that we knew the exact time before the play started. Everyone agrees that the official was at fault. Everyone agrees that it wasn't a timer's error because the timer responded to the official's signal. We've never disagreed on any of these points. The disagreement is whether an official's error can be corrected. As I've stated several times, 2-5-5 states that the referee can "correct obvious TIMING<\b> errors." It doesn't say "timer's" errors.

Now that I've stated my rule reference, can someone state their rule book reference that state's that an official's error can't be corrected? I concede the statement in the case book. However, it is being taken out of context. It is from a comment where the rest of the paragraph is talking about "lag" time. It is trying to illustrate that, even though the clock may be started or stopped properly, "lag" time may exist and itisn't to be considered a "timer's mistake" and, thus, can't be corrected. In addition, the comment is clarifying a situation that doesn't include an official's error. Furthermore, the Ruule that the case is referencing doesn't say anything about not being able to correct an official's error. If we couldn't correct an official's error, it would be stated in the rule book, not only in a comment in the case book. [/B][/QUOTE]Well, I was gonna write up a whole buncha things in rebuttal. But....you wouldn't understand them. Call it any way you want to.

[Maverick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, I was gonna write up a whole buncha things in rebuttal. But....you wouldn't understand them. Call it any way you want to.

So you don't have a rule book reference to base your claim off of? I stated my rule book reference as requested but I haven't seen anyone be able to counter it with a different reference. I wish I had a nickel for every time you've jumped on someone for saying they're going to call something one way without a rule book reference to back it up.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Timer

Coming in late to this discussion, but as my handle shows, I'm interested. I'm a timer for a NCAA D1 institution with 20 years behind the panel. Because mechanics vary greatly from individual to individual, I've learned not to rely on the chop motion alone in starting the clock. Part of my job, as I see it, is to be knowledgeable of what's happening on the court.

In this particular situation, IF I had a clear view of what was happening on the end line, I'm not looking for a chop. I'm watching the ball and the players.

Part of EVERY pre-game meeting between the floor and table officials invaribly includes the Lead saying "Keep us out of trouble." In the play described, IF I had clear view, and IF I knew A2 was also OOB, the clock isn't starting.

By literal rule I know that's not correct, but I also know it's the correct thing to do based on the "keep us out of trouble rule."

All that goes out the window if I'm screened and don't have a good look. Then I'm looking for a chop.

Amen.

Glad to see that there are fellow table brethern who would do the same thing as me.

[blindzebra]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maverick

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

So you don't have a rule book reference to base your claim off of? I stated my rule book reference as requested but I haven't seen anyone be able to counter it with a different reference. I wish I had a nickel for every time you've jumped on someone for saying they're going to call something one way without a rule book reference to back it up.

Fixing timing errors are mentioned twice in the rule book, under officials duties in 2-5 and under timer's errors in 5-10.

We have ad nauseum gave you an example of 5-10 fixing timer's errors, with a comment saying only a timer's error can be fixed.

You have maintained that 2-5 and 5-10 are not connected, that 5-10 only deals with timer's errors and that 2-5 deals with all errors. Well where is a specific reference to fixing an official's error with 2-5-5?

You know a rule with a heading official's error or a case play dealing with this situation, care to give it?

2-5-5 starts out talking about when scorers or timers...note the plural...disagree and correct obvious timing errors. I can argue that this means fixing a timing error caused by the two timers disagreeing. This rule gives the official the authority to fix a timing error under 5-10.

Again, expand on this 2-5-5 claim. Show where it says it is seperate from 5-10.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maverick

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

So you don't have a rule book reference to base your claim off of? I stated my rule book reference as requested but I haven't seen anyone be able to counter it with a different reference. I wish I had a nickel for every time you've jumped on someone for saying they're going to call something one way without a rule book reference to back it up.

I gave you rules references. You don't choose to believe them. That's fine with me. You don't have a clue what you're talking about and it's a waste of time arguing with you anyway. Iow, go ahead and call anything you want to and don't worry about the rules.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra


Fixing timing errors are mentioned twice in the rule book, under officials duties in 2-5 and under timer's errors in 5-10.

OK. So we agree that it's mentioned twice.

We have ad nauseum gave you an example of 5-10 fixing timer's errors, with a comment saying only a timer's error can be fixed.

You have maintained that 2-5 and 5-10 are not connected, that 5-10 only deals with timer's errors and that 2-5 deals with all errors. Well where is a specific reference to fixing an official's error with 2-5-5?

2-5-5 gives the referee the power to correct obvious timing errors, it doesn't restrict how they occured.

You know a rule with a heading official's error or a case play dealing with this situation, care to give it?

I don't know of one. That's my point. I'm saying there ISN'T a rule specifically stating that official's errors can't be corrected. The referee has the ability to make any decisions he/she deems necessary under 2-3 and 2-5-3 through 2-5-6. You're the one who keeps claiming that the rules state that an official's error can't be corrected. Where is the rule reference for that?

2-5-5 starts out talking about when scorers or timers...note the plural...disagree and correct obvious timing errors. I can argue that this means fixing a timing error caused by the two timers disagreeing. This rule gives the official the authority to fix a timing error under 5-10.

Again, expand on this 2-5-5 claim. Show where it says it is seperate from 5-10.[/B]

I don't believe scorer and timer are plural in that rule. The rule book I'm looking at says "Decide matters upon which the timer and scorer disagree and correct obvious timing errors." I've never seen a game with two timers so I'm not sure how they could disagree. The scorer doesn't keep any timing information so they couldn't disagree on timing issues. So the timing issue could only be caused by a timer's mistake (covered in 5-10) or something out of the timer's control such as an official's error, scoreboard malfunction, etc. The possibilities aren't spelled out; only that the referee has the ability to correct them.

[mopar60]

You know, I really, really like that rule that says something about "If da book doesn't fix it, YOU can!"

Not sure I have the vocab exactly right but....

I like that one!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Maverick

OK. So we agree that it's mentioned twice.

2-5-5 gives the referee the power to correct obvious timing errors, it doesn't restrict how they occured.

I don't know of one. That's my point. I'm saying there ISN'T a rule specifically stating that official's errors can't be corrected. The referee has the ability to make any decisions he/she deems necessary under 2-3 and 2-5-3 through 2-5-6. You're the one who keeps claiming that the rules state that an official's error can't be corrected. Where is the rule reference for that?

I don't believe scorer and timer are plural in that rule. The rule book I'm looking at says "Decide matters upon which the timer and scorer disagree and correct obvious timing errors." I've never seen a game with two timers so I'm not sure how they could disagree. The scorer doesn't keep any timing information so they couldn't disagree on timing issues. So the timing issue could only be caused by a timer's mistake (covered in 5-10) or something out of the timer's control such as an official's error, scoreboard malfunction, etc. The possibilities aren't spelled out; only that the referee has the ability to correct them. [/B]

I had the 2000-1 book at my computer and they have since changed it to timer and scorer from timers and scorers, but it still has no baring on the discussion at hand.

2-2-5 says officials may correct obvious timing errors and 5-10 tells us which errors may be corrected, there is a reference to official's errors in timing not being correctable in 5.10.1.C.

The fact that there is not a case or rules reference about fixing an official's error causing the clock to start, while we do have a reference to only being able to fix a timer's error, should tell you all you need to know.